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OfflineSporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Alan Watts [Re: dblaney]
    #5650066 - 05/19/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If the author invalidates his own theorem, then it is finished.


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I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650075 - 05/19/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
If the author invalidates his own theorem, then it is finished.



How can you be sure the author was following his own advice? Should we scrap Jefferson's words about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because he owned slaves? Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.


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OfflineSporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650086 - 05/19/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.

I see. So how many folks still follow the teachings of Jim Jones?


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I'm Sporetacus!


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650230 - 05/19/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How do you know he invalidated his own theories?

Perhaps he was following his own writings but was missing a crucial piece of understanding. This doesn't make the other pieces less valid, it just means that one should study other sources to ensure that one gets whatever piece/s he may have been missing.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Alan Watts [Re: dblaney]
    #5650254 - 05/19/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I see. One should spend 30 years doing spiritual practices that may be incomplete, erroneous or ineffectual because the author 'sounded cool'.

Multiply that times all the books in the philosophy sector - well, we just don't live that long - so I will check out the author himself.


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I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650263 - 05/19/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How have you done that? Reading about someones problems second hand doesn't necessarily tell you that much.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650292 - 05/19/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One should spend 30 years doing spiritual practices that may be incomplete, erroneous or ineffectual because the author 'sounded cool'.

No, that's not what I said at all.

I said that one should integrate insights and understanding presented by one source with those of other authors/sources, precisely because one source may be incomplete.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650652 - 05/19/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.

I see. So how many folks still follow the teachings of Jim Jones?



Straw man. I have not said that hypocrites are always right. All I said is that it does not prevent them from being right.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650666 - 05/19/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think Jimmy J did the world a great service. :thumbup: Ever hear of population control and survival of the fittest? What if those people had reproduced?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5650812 - 05/19/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ditto. if one cannot control their belief in such a way as to maintain their survival then nature will take it's course...it's evolution.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5650899 - 05/19/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hot48yearolds said:
Alan Watts was not a buddhist guru himself, he was simply the the bridge between eastern thought and the western world....You guys need to get your heads out of your asses.




:thumbup:


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5651125 - 05/19/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What if those people had reproduced?





they did reproduce, many of them had children who did not partake in the suicide.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Deviate]
    #5651270 - 05/19/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

oh well, then at least they set an example for them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
Swashbuckler

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 152
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5651979 - 05/20/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I learned was to switch from grape to cherry flavor.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5652515 - 05/20/06 07:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One step at a time. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5652640 - 05/20/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't like to drink any kool-aid unless I make it myself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5654496 - 05/20/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There was a time when I really enjoyed Alan Watts books, but in retrospect I can't believe how many of them I've bought/read (surely must have been dozens). For the most part, the same information was presented in every book with only a handful of new thoughts. Personally I'd say just read through a couple or few of them, and save your time and money on other things.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Alan Watts [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5655810 - 05/21/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In thinking about this subject a little more deeply, and in contemplating some of the points raised in the continuation of this thread, I've arrived at some new conclusions.

Some of Sporetacus' points have important applications. Some of my own points have important applications. Each side has it's advantages and disadvantages. Incidentally, it seems as though the advantages and disadvantages of either view are in perfect opposition to each other, and in fact function to cancel any extremes that could arise from their application.

One view is that we must search for an exceptionally qualified teacher who meets our own standards for spiritual and ethical integrity if we are to make any spiritual progress. This has many benefits. It helps us find preliminary confidence in the instructions we receive and put in to practise. It helps us find the boundaries when we encounter troubling situations that exceed our present capacity. This view, however, also has many drawbacks. If relied upon too heavily, it can put us at odds with our teachers, fill us with doubts which destroy our spiritual life, and isolate us within a cacophony of confusing experiences.

The other view is that we should maintain an open inquisitiveness, deriving from life lessons wherever they happen to appear. This has many benefits. It is a view that makes everyone our spiritual guide, enabling us to progress swiftly, increasing our concentration and wisdom. It engages us with our experience, and brings great meaning to our whole life. If relied upon too heavily, however, this view has many drawbacks. For example, we might become arrogant and self-absorbed, develop ignorance toward valid spiritual instruction, and we may lose our spiritual bearings and end up lost in a hazy mist of subjectivism.

And so it seems like a blend of these two views is most appropriate. They balance each other out. Relying properly on the integrity of a qualified teacher, without being overly critical and probing his instructions pointlessly, will help keep us centred and give us spiritual direction. At the same time, keeping an open heart and searching for spiritual lessons from everyone we encounter and all the places we travel, propels us with great momentum in the direction of peace and happiness. It seems like a union of these two views might function like the laser beam that perfectly centres our intention upon correct spiritual targets.

We should of course always be cautious about who we listen to. If we adopt the kind of approach that I originally suggested, a view which makes us a "student of our own experience", that is to say, learning from many kinds of input without discrimination, we are in danger of carrying it to an extreme and becoming lost in self-absorption, and we shall make no genuine progress. It is helpful to have somebody else to rely on, and, if we are to rely on such a figure, we should be certain of their integrity. The criteria for this certainty, however, also has to be kept reasonable. If we are too critical and carry our rigidity to an extreme, we will become lost in doubt and disillusionment, deaf to any teachings we might receive, and we shall make no genuine progress.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (05/21/06 10:45 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5655912 - 05/21/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You Buddhist's and your middle path. :grin: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5656015 - 05/21/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Some here still don't quite understand the difference between a valid and an invalid ad hominem.

Invalid ad hominem: Physicist X's theorem is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case the theorem should stand or fall on it's own merits.

Valid ad hominem: Writer X' view on how to achieve inner peace and contentment is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case how the writer actually lived (and died) is a valid test of his theorem.





Instead of some, you could say "you".

As I said if you hold the system to itself (that is of logical fallacies), you'll see it only contradicts itself:

all logical fallacies are appeals to authority *.



* -- see all my other posts (and Life) to discover the truthlessness of logic and analytical philosophy


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