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 Elmore
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
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 Anti-Green Mold Tek 
#557295 - 02/20/02 08:58 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fellow enthusiasts,
What is the collective wisdom with regard to letting jars filled with substrate sit for 24 to 48 hours prior to pressure cooker sterilization?
I had read somewhere that this was a good idea in order to let the contaminants "bloom" as they were easier to kill post-bloom than in the spore-like state.
Your thoughts are, as always, greatly appreciated and repected.
Elmore
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Intraskuller Avianaut Extrordinaire
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 Papa_Smurf
member
Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 163
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#557306 - 02/20/02 09:09 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've never had a problem killing them pre-bloom. The rye jar tek that has you let them sit for 24 hours works no better than adding water and cooking them immediately. Same thing goes for jars, just mix up up and go (baking the vermic and flour does work well, however). I hardly ever get contams.
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"Only after you have lost everything, are you free to do anything"
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Elmore
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Papa_Smurf]
#557858 - 02/20/02 08:26 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Has I've been thinking about this, I've been wondering if the size of the vermiculite has something to do with effectiveness of steam distribution in a pressure cooker.
That is: If you have a coarser (larger particle size) does this allow more complete access for the steam to do its sterilizing duty.
Thoughts o'masters of the fungal world?
Elmore (again)
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Intraskuller Avianaut Extrordinaire
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,167
Loc: my room
Last seen: 27 days, 4 hours
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#558142 - 02/21/02 01:57 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don?t lewt them sit more then 12-24 hours, since the grains will germinate and brf contaminate badly.
This "lettin them sit" is not against mold, but agains bacterial endospores.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,167
Loc: my room
Last seen: 27 days, 4 hours
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#558145 - 02/21/02 02:00 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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> I've been wondering if the size of the vermiculite has something to do with effectiveness of steam distribution in a pressure cooker.
No. The steam hardly comes into the jar. If that would be, it would condensate in the jar and the jar would be heavier after the pressure cooking. Something that doesn?t happen.
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thebiggerfig
newbie
Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 44
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Papa_Smurf]
#558340 - 02/21/02 09:15 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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does it really matter if the contam blooms or not; they release spores also don't they?
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shit happens, you just have to grow shrooms on it
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: thebiggerfig]
#558511 - 02/21/02 12:15 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am confused by your question, so I will give an answer and hope it matches the question. -grin-
There are several types of contamination... yeasts, other fungi, molds, bacteria, insects, etc. Bacteria is a really nasty one because they multiply so fast. A single bacteria can multiply every 20 minutes or so, resulting in millions of bacteria within just a few hours (expedential growth). Some bacteria form "endospores" when life gets rough. An endospore is similiar to the spores you use to innoculate with, but it forms inside the bacteria. Endospores are like seeds... they survive the bad times and give birth when conditions are better. Endospores are very tough and hard to kill. The bacteria that they give birth to are usually pretty easy to kill. Because a single bacteria can do a lot of harm very quickly, a single surviving endospore can ruin a crop.
To get rid of endospores, we soak the substrate in water between 12 and 24 hours. This tricks the endospores into thinking everything is good to go and they germinate and start to grow into bacteria. The goal is to soak the substrate long enough to get the endospores to germinate, but not long enough to give everything else a chance to grow. Once all the endospores are gone, the bacteria that they produce are pretty easy to kill in the autoclave. The autoclave works too fast for the bacteria to create new endospores leaving you with a nice sterile product.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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thebiggerfig
newbie
Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 44
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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 Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Seuss]
#558816 - 02/21/02 05:42 PM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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will the endospores be destroyed in a pressure cooker, i've never had a problem with bacteria so i assume it does
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shit happens, you just have to grow shrooms on it
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MilhouseT1
somewhatexperienced
Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 46
Loc: Philly, PA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: thebiggerfig]
#560549 - 02/23/02 10:39 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmmm. I premade my brf and vermiculate jars 4 days before I pressure cooked them. They were immediately sealed after the jars were filled. Anyway, my question is, because I waited the 4 days before sterilization, did my jars start to produce contaminants in those 4 days and will my pressure cooker be able to kill those contams? The post above scared me some.
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Incognito
member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 125
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#560558 - 02/23/02 10:55 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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if the contaminant had a chance to "bloom" for 24-48 hours then they would have a chance to produce the very thing you are trying to avoid, microtoxins. right in your substrate. so by allowing your contaminants to blooms such and extended period of time. i think 6-20 hours would suffice. say...overnight, or something, thus allowing the baceria and such to commence activation and go through minimal multiplication and thus waste production(microtoxins).
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To make a contribution to the Society for Restructuring Your Lives please contact me. We accept contributions of the following types: capital, capital producing systems, information deemed vauable to the society. Please direct all inquiries to me.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,167
Loc: my room
Last seen: 27 days, 4 hours
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Incognito]
#561185 - 02/24/02 12:42 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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>produce the very thing you are trying to avoid, microtoxi
They are called mycotoxins and a produced by definition by molds, NOT bacteria.
But you?re right on the time, 24 hours is the maximum soaking time for whole grains, if you have a substrate containing flours pressure cook them right away.
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Elmore
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Anno]
#573246 - 03/08/02 06:39 AM (22 years, 9 months ago) |
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A sort of follow up to this thread that I initiated....
Recently I chose the "all of the above" approach:
1. I "baked" my verm and BRF (seperately) for one hour at 300 degrees F.
2. I boiled my jars and lids in a pot full of water + 1/2 cup bleach for 45 minutes; let cool; washed/dried, stored in new baggie prior to use. (This process discolored the lids)
3. Used same "clean room" conditions I use to make syringes to fill jars with substrate: small bathroom well cleaned with disinfectant, electrostatic air cleaner left running for an hour prior to use, and a mask worn during process.
4. Sterilized jars approx. 18 hours after creation @ 1 hour in pressure cooker.
Thanks for all your suggestions/thoughts....anyone tried the Magic Micron filter disks as replacements for standard metal jar lids?
Peace & Out.
Elmore
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Intraskuller Avianaut Extrordinaire
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JoeShroomer
Stranger
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 15
Loc: va
Last seen: 22 years, 8 months
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#575279 - 03/10/02 08:06 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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wow. im just seeing if my pic thing works acutrally.
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[red]"Excuse me please, one more drink. Could you make it fast cause I.. don't need to think."[/red]
-Dave M.
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Elmore
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
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Re: Anti-Green Mold Tek [Re: Elmore]
#590312 - 03/26/02 06:48 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have someting to add to my own thread here...its sort of a "hot fill tek" that I've used with some success after a series of discouraging bouts with that green shit.
I have a two compartment ceramic dish and I filled one half with verm and the other with BRF. It has a cover and off into the oven at 300 F it went for a 45 minute ride. About 20 minutes before the verm/BRF dish was done, I began boiling some filtered tap water.
When the verm/BRF was done, I didn't let it cool, I just commenced the standard substrate production process using all hot ingredients. I kept the verm/BRF dish covered when not taking product out, ditto the water.
This done, waited 6 hours and sterilized using pressure cooker as normal and VOILA, no contaminated jars.
"Hot Fill Tek"...whaddya think?
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Intraskuller Avianaut Extrordinaire
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