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Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime?
    #5379707 -

I am attempting to get all the input possible to learn how to do casings the best way I can.

I read the post by sixtango The importance of optimal casing pH , that got me thinking about a few things I wanted to run by the pros

I had a few questions in regards to PH Levels using the 50/50 Tek and using modifications.

- I have read that crushed oyster flour works better because it will provide the alkaline necessary for the casing more quickly than waiting for the oyster shells to decompose. However at pets mart I saw Calci Sand, I was wanting to know if that would provide the same resource but last longer for more flushes?? Also, If oyster shells take longer, would not that be better in the long run for more flushes? Or am I just total wrong, lol.

- If I decided on using ground lime, I heard it will help me obtain more optimal flushes, would I alter any of the 50/50 tek.

Any input and experiences would be appreciated. Trying as much as possible not learn the hard way, lol.

Thanks

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5379912 -

agar = SixTango, in another life.



If you can find an oyster shell product that is ground down to a near flour & small sand consistency, that gets a little milky looking, when you add water to it.

It works fine, as the flour & smaller size particles act fairly quickly & the sand size acts as a long term buffer.

If it is all sand & larger size particles. It is very slow acting.

I soak peat in a plastic bucket of water - with about 3 tablespoons of hydrated lime in the solution. Then test Ph & add more if needed. Once Ph is between 7 & 8. I add oyster shell flour, as a long term buffer.

KELWAY Ph & moisture meter :thumbup:

Then make the mix.


PEAT Ph


Perfect ph (mixed)


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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: agar]
    #5380320 -

Agar, I would love your opinion on this... I am trying to make the very best casing possible for cubes..

From all the info I absorbed from this site... I think this is the very best mixture, which is similar to the 50/50+ tek

15 ? cups of vermiculite
15 ? cups of peat moss
4 ? oyster shell flour
1.2 cups of hydrated limestone
15 cups of distilled water

I substituted crushed oyster shell with oyster shell flour (hyphae's suggestion)
I will buy the hydrated lime from mycosupply, just to be on the safe side that it is not the brand that throws off the PH balance

thanx x infiniti!

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: tonyperez420]
    #5380486 -

tonyperez420 said:
Agar, I would love your opinion on this... I am trying to make the very best casing possible for cubes..

From all the info I absorbed from this site... I think this is the very best mixture, which is similar to the 50/50+ tek

15 ? cups of vermiculite
15 ? cups of peat moss
4 ? oyster shell flour
1.2 cups of hydrated limestone
15 cups of distilled water
I substituted crushed oyster shell with oyster shell flour (hyphae's suggestion)
I will buy the hydrated lime from mycosupply, just to be on the safe side that it is not the brand that throws off the PH balance
thanx x infiniti!


There is no MAGIC CASING MIXTURE RECIPE.

Here is why.

Peat from differing sources have differing Ph.

Verm from differing sources have differing Ph.

Coir from differing sources have differing Ph.

Water from differing sources have differing pH.

How can one add a specific amount of buffering agent, to something so variable that will result in an optimal casing mix Ph (7.5)?

You cannot.

Unless you use a Ph meter, or litmus strips to test it.




I use these two things to adjust Ph.
I use a ph meter, or litmus strips to test the ph.

That is how (amongst other things), you get a healthy pin-set.


A packet of litmus strips is inexpensive.
Why not get & use some.
If so, you will know EXACTLY what the resulting casing mix pH is.

Then, get results - as above.


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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: agar]
    #5380504 -

what does an old school ph meter like that run??? the only ones i could find were digital and start around $80+. That seemed a little high so i figure and old school needle style would be cheaper than a digital ph reader.


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Edited by thenewguy05 (03/09/06 08:41 AM)

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: thenewguy05]
    #5380515 -

http://www.growersupply.com/kehbsote.html

Not cheap. I use a Kelway HB-2

Which tests BOTH moisture & pH.

They have one for just pH, that runs $60
http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=1703


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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: agar]
    #5383888 -

Notice that agar says he uses the hydrated lime in a BATH. He doesn't dump hydrated lime directly in the casing soil even with his fancy pH probe. That's probably because it's really strong stuff.

Really, I don't recommend anyone use hydrated lime unless you have an accurate pH probe. In the short term, it's at least 20 times as strong as a typical mesh of calcium carbonate flour used for gardening, and worse yet it can blow the pH all the way up to around 12.5 in seconds. It's too strong to use unless you have a pH probe to help you out.

Calcium carbonate flours, on the other hand, can safely be used even without a probe because they practically stop dissolving in the lower 8s anyway, making it nearly impossible to royally screw stuff up like you can with hydrated lime.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5386760 -

Thanks for the idea of the litmus strips to test the ph level. Good idea! I have read that when you purchase Hydrated Lime, you need to beware of the different levels of Magnesium. I was thinking about using Garden Lime and didn't know if I should even worry about it or if it was a bad product.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5386801 -

pH strips at $1.95 at SCIPLUS , plus they never lie unless your color blind.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5387004 -

rawtoxic, I can tell you have not used litmus paper. As the air reacts with the water on the litmus paper, the pH changes. If you get them too wet, the dye starts to run making the whole paper a spectrum of colors. They aren't as great as you think. From my experience, one can get a very rough idea of the pH, like it's about in the 7s with them, but that's really it. For mushrooms, that might be enough, though.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5388908 -

Any idiot can read pH papers. I was a bit unsure myself at first. But started testing myself with ph of known substances and it is easy as shit.. Just have to know the correct techniques of using them.

Oh yeah here's my ph papers - since i've never used them. Looks half empty and beat up to me.


Would you like a tutorial on how to use them as well to test my competence?

You can easily distinguish i'd say .5 variations in color at least I can. I have tested my guesses with a friend digital pH meter as well. it is pretty easy to distinguish casing ph for ME with ph paper. i guess some of us are bit more challenged than others.

i would prefer a nice digital ph gauge however.

my .02

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5389064 -

rawtoxic said:
Any idiot can read pH papers. 


Well I'm color blind, and I can't read them.  Watch the blanket statements here at Shroomery :thumbup:


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5389172 -

rawtoxic said:
pH strips at $1.95 at SCIPLUS , plus they never lie unless your color blind.


Hence my statement two statements ago. I am sensititve too so read carefully next time.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5389245 -

Well, I am not at all color blind, although something like 20% of the male population is color blind to some extent. Your brand might be a lot better than the one I tried. I'll try them again using the link you gave me. The issue I had with them wasn't distinguishing the color it was having the color be steady. I'd look at the paper and it'd be a different color 5 seconds later, and I wasn't even tripping. Maybe I had a bad quality type.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389857 -

For some reason these discussions always seem to revolve around the 'right type' of lime, but gypsum is nearly always forgotten. Be sure to use gypsum at up to ten percent of the total mix, and you won't have wild ph swings, regardless of the kind of lime used. I also recommend mixing all the dry ingredients together first(dry peat, lime and gypsum), then add water until nearly field capacity, then add moistened vermiculite. Once mixed, carefully adjust to field moisture capacity and pasteurize.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5390804 -

Okay, RogerRobbit, I'll bite. Let me try the mix of 1 teaspoon of calcium hydroxide and 1 tablespoon gypsum to a cup of peat. I microwave pasteurize the sample and see what happens in a day. I'll get back with you and this thread along with the other two we've been arguing this point.

Maybe somehow the gypsum acts as a catalyst so that excess calcium hydroxide with CO2 in the air forms calcium carbonate very quickly, which would lower the pH to ideal. That reaction happens eventually even without gypsum but normally it takes weeks it seems.

Edited by Blue Helix (03/12/06 02:14 AM)

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5390932 -

One last thing, RogerRabbit. Could you measure the pH of your peat moss right out of the bag? And if you don't use distilled or reverse osmosis water, what is the pH of your water? Let's make sure we are starting with about the same materials.

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5391178 -

My water reads right around 7. My peat is 5.2

Hydrated lime has calcium hydroxide in it, but be sure to use hydrated garden lime, not industrial calcium hydroxide. Just mix your dry ingredients, moisten and allow to sit for 24 hours.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5391468 -

First of all Caco3 becomes more readily available than oyster shell also these long term buffers neutralize pH in other words bring it closer to neutral. Hydrated lime on the otherhand raises pH. So for those who can't afford a pH meter ( :frown: ) don't worry about it there are many formulas out there that are tried and true in other words good enough to get some prolific flushes. BTW I personally know more than a few growers that have grown with 50/50 minus the + which BTW has been a tek for years so remember myc doesn't consume the casing (FACT) it simply is growing thru it of course were not talking coir or casings with time released nutes. Optimizing each and every aspect of the grow will of course reward a grower consistantly and is something serious growers strive for.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
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Re: Casing Q's - PH Levels , Oyster Flour vs Calci Sand and Ground Lime? [Re: Learning2Much]
    #5391576 -

RogerRabbit, the pH of Sunshine peat moss that I use is about 4.6 to 4.7. It's being mixed with reverse osmosis water that has no pH buffering capacity. This morning after cooling my mix of 1 teaspoon hydrated lime, 1.5 tablespoon gypsum, and 1 cup peat (as measured dry and fairly compacted), is 11.3. I am using a pH meter that was just calibrated using calibration solutions.

I am not sure why you have a wildly different pH in your mix than mine, but I am convinced that on my end using the hydrated lime I used, one cannot use that much hydrated lime in their casing soil. I found that 1/8th teaspoon per cup about neutralizes the my peat's pH to around 7. To overshoot for a long-term pH raising effect, I'd use a little more but no more than 1/4 teaspoon. At 1/4 teaspoon per cup, you'd still have a pH of about 9 or 10 the next day but it settles down in about a week to decent.

I don't have access to hydrated garden lime, which is an inferior type of hydrated lime that is usually a few percent impure. Beacause hydrated lime is relatively soluable compared to calcium carbonate, its reactivity rate doesn't really vary with the mesh size a whole lot like it does with calcium carbonate. That means you are suggesting that those couple percent of impurities in garden hydrated lime (which are usually just calcium carbonate) versus food grade hydrated lime are to blame for our WILDLY different results. I am sure that is not the case.

What I think probably is the case is that one or more of these things is skewing our results:

1) your pH probe is somehow lying to you or not well suited for soil

2) the pH probe I have is lying or somehow not well suited for soil

3) the peat you have has a much higher buffering capcity than the stuff I do

4) the water you have has a very high buffering capacity (mine being reverse osmosis has no buffering capacity).


I have no clue. I do think it's a little irresponsible for either of us to just say add X amount of hydrated lime per X cups of peat when we know that it doesn't work for the other. That is why I am going to change my recommendations that no one use hydrated lime unless they have a pH probe. Calcium carbonate is much less risky than hydrated lime and doesn't ever overshoot the pH by more than a point because it's chemically impossible.

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