Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
OfflineSnaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Slime Mold......Mycelium Running
    #5372390 - 03/06/06 11:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I just started to read Stamets new book, Mycelium Running. So far so good. :tongue:

I have heard him talk about this test before and it's in the book. A test that was carried out by Toshuyiki Nakagki(2000)with 'slime mold' or Physarum polycephalum.

He placed a maze over a petri dish with an Agar mix and placed a food source at the entrance and exit.

As it grew, it made it's through the maze but taking the shortest route and 'capture' both food source.

Demonstrating a form of intelligence........

Anyway to my question: Can this be done at home, to recreate this.

I am just floored by this and would love to see it, if it can be done with a reason of success.

You might not know but what are your thoughts :bongload:

I did a quick Google..........

Physarum polycephalum

Physarum polycephalum......Pics
Hopefully the mods are ok with this here :stoned:

:mushroom2:


--------------------


Atheist Chat


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTien
人民英雄
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 2,382
Loc: Canoodia Flag
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5372415 - 03/06/06 11:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fascinating, sounds like an idea...all you have to do is get a mold of a round maze(s) done, the diameter of the maze should be same as your petri-dishes, and it has to be the exact height as the petri (so it touches bottom to top), otherwise the mycellium will probably just grow over it.

I just dont know how you would go about getting the maze made though.

Pluto


Edited by Plutonium (03/06/06 11:19 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleliloldmeFacebook
( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)つ=D
Other User Gallery

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5,087
Loc: Zone 8
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Tien]
    #5372559 - 03/06/06 11:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes we could start a underground gambling ring that places bets on mycelium strain races....


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: liloldme]
    #5372585 - 03/07/06 12:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You know if there was a way to pull that off would be interesting indeed  :stoned:


--------------------


Atheist Chat


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5373289 - 03/07/06 05:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Slime mold is a single cell, there's no neural network. It is not figuring out a maze like a human or a mouse would by abstract reasoning. It also isn't entering the maze, and finding the exit. What's really going on in Nakagaki's study is that he first allows the slime to fully populate the agar in the maze, filling every nook and cranny. Only then does he place two wet pieces of oatmeal (its favorite food) at two places on the periphery of the maze. The slime will then mostly move onto the two pieces of food, withdrawing from the parts of the maze not directly linked between the two food sources, leaving only a small tube network still connecting the two large parts of the cell. This is what he calls 'solving' the maze, and credits the slime with intelligence. Come on, if I put bubble gum in the maze and pulled it from two places, it would contract into the shortest path, too. Bazooka Joe just isn't that smart.

Here's the study in all its shameless glory. Much more interesting is the study by Tsuda et al, incorporating the natural information processing of Physarum cells to control a mobile robot to avoid lighted areas. This interface of biochemical dynamics with synthetic intelligence is the real wave of the future, I believe. Here's Tsuda's study.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5373297 - 03/07/06 05:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Snaggletooth said:
... Can this be done at home, to recreate this.

I am just floored by this and would love to see it, if it can be done with a reason of success.




Sure can, especially a myc cultivator's home. Forgot to post this above. It's one of the most popular teaching tools around and one of the easiest to culture.

Here's some experiments.
How to culture it, and where to buy it, and more experiments.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: mogur]
    #5373342 - 03/07/06 06:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The difference between your piece of bubble gum and the slime mold is that your gum would stretch along whatever path you pulled it, whereas the slime mold finds the shortest connection between the food sources. What's amazing is that the slime mold has the ability to determine the connection(s) making up the shortest path. This of course has nothing to do with conscious determination but is more along the lines of, but more complex than, something like chemotaxis. It's not trivial.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5373368 - 03/07/06 07:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Huh? It is exactly chemotaxis, by definition. Did you not check out my links? How a single cell organism is able to coordinate information from stimuli to control migration towards or away from those stimuli is a fascinating (and not a trivial) study, as I already referenced. Here is another study by Miyake, Yano, and Shimizu.

What I do find bizarre and self-aggrandizing is Nakagaki's claim that this amazing ability is evidence of intelligent problem solving. That is what he is claiming, even in the title of his article that I linked to in my above post.

As for the bubble gum, you must have missed the part where the slime mold starts off fully populating (filling) the maze. The gum must be allowed this initial state, also. Now, when you pull the gum at the entrance and the exit of the maze, what happens? The parts of the gum that are in dead-end corridors of the maze will be pulled out of those dead-ends and eventually the gum will become a single string that takes the shortest route through the maze. I'm sure you must be able to visualize this. Look at the maze itself in Nakagaki's article.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepocketmulch
Stranger
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 29
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: mogur]
    #5373376 - 03/07/06 08:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Check out also the Eumycetozoan Project's educational resources page:
http://slimemold.uark.edu/educationframe.htm

They have ID info and guides for capturing and cultivating.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: mogur]
    #5373827 - 03/07/06 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I seeee, ok thanks man for the links....I'll check them out  :thumbup:


--------------------


Atheist Chat


Edited by Snaggletooth (03/07/06 01:05 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: mogur]
    #5375629 - 03/07/06 09:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So it sounds like not a huge surprise.....bummer

I don't think I am as interested in it now.... :stoned:


--------------------


Atheist Chat


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5375836 - 03/07/06 10:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, man, maybe I was a little hard on the beaver last night, I just felt a little tricked by the hype when I looked at what was really happening. My experience with scientists that are more concerned with publicity than reality, has probably jaded me a bit. Thanks for turning me on to the study of slime molds, though, they really don't need hyping to be fascinating. A single cell critter that can span several feet in size, and can coordinate motile response to external signals by some complex chemical/electrical information processing is at least as interesting as a naked monkey or a hungry mouse, anyway.  :naughty:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: mogur]
    #5376513 - 03/08/06 03:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No man, I read the study. It's more complicated than chemotaxis because the organism doesn't simply move toward a food source, but moves towards several simultaneously while maintaining a connective network between them of minimum length. I'm just not sure the same thing happens with bubble gum even if I can visualize it. Even if you fill the maze with bubble gum and then start bunching it up on two sides, I'm pretty sure the clumps would grow for a bit then possibly break in the middle somewhere, while areas would break off and not move at all leaving a hole in the middle. I dunno man, maybe we should try it, then we can publish a study about intelligent gum.

To be fair to Nakagaki though, one would have to have viewed that presentation to be able to make any inferences from those slides—they're all out of context for us. In that last paper you linked, he gives a more detailed description of the decision mechanism which doesn't mention slime mold intelligence at all unless I missed something.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSnaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5377044 - 03/08/06 11:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well it is interesting but I don't know if making the observation in a home setting worth while.

Honestly some of this is over my head, but nerveless I like the discussion.



--------------------


Atheist Chat


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,209
Loc: upstate NY, USA
Last seen: 11 months, 4 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5377595 - 03/08/06 03:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I thought I shared this with people here a couple of years ago...It was pretty interesting. By the third trip through the maze, the mycelium would 'cheat' by climbing right over the walls of the maze as you can see below. The reward was sterilized rye grains at the end.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Slime Mold......Mycelium Running [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5377827 - 03/08/06 04:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The overall mechanics of what is happening in these studies is pretty straightforward. The slime mold shoots out a network of tubes in all directions until it stumbles upon a food source and moves towards it. If more than one piece of food is found, then roughly equal portions of the cell move toward the food, retracting all dead end tubes and leaving only tubes that connect the large parts of the cell. The connecting tubes that have the longest length are also retracted, leaving only connecting tubes with the shortest length. If barriers create multiple connecting paths of equal length, then the tubes in all of these paths are maintained. Even in Nakagaki's maze, you can see that the tubes did NOT resolve into a single path because there was more than one path of equal length.

On the other hand, the mechanism of this rather simple behavior is very complex, and in spite of much research, is yet to be completely understood. Various guesses involve in-phase and out-of-phase oscillations, chemical gradients, and wave propagations. For our discussion, these gory details are not very interesting.

My point is that although the mechanics are straightforward and no more impressive than the ability of fur on an animal to align itself into patterns, we, as humans, tend to view the results of such behavior on an intelligence scale. I find it disingenuous to take the highly evolved, food seeking and preservation behavior of a single celled organism, place it into a situation that we consider a puzzle, and when that behavior gives the appearance of a solution to that puzzle, claim that some sort of problem solving intelligence is evident.

I don't think our research paper on the intelligence of gum would go over very well. Even if we cleverly found a situation in which the characteristics of gum solved a baffling problem, it would probably be just too much for us to chew on.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* mold\mycelium.. hmm.. sklpz 1,544 1 09/24/01 03:22 AM
by 3Mshroom
* Green mold- help Forumbyrne 1,157 3 03/12/02 04:12 AM
by pleezr
* what is the lowest temp mycelium can survive? eric_the_red 2,874 6 04/12/03 09:07 AM
by Prisoner#1
* How does mycelium colonize substrate? Fd3000 6,310 5 07/10/02 07:47 AM
by Mycelium
* needle guage for sucking up mycelium... Mycelium 2,471 2 07/05/02 07:58 PM
by SixTango
* Is psylocybe in mycelium?
( 1 2 all )
Only1AK 16,406 23 01/28/21 07:07 PM
by falconman
* White mold? Unsure about the white texture on the substrate Jvxn 1,464 10 03/02/18 12:58 PM
by mushboy
* The Mycelium Rescue Mission! Gthirteens 1,286 5 01/08/03 01:18 PM
by Zero7a1

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, FooMan, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, stonesun, wildernessjunkie, cronicr, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato
3,412 topic views. 29 members, 200 guests and 19 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.