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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate * 1
    #526765 - 01/20/02 07:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This subject was started in another thead in the pictures forum.

Basically Ralphster asked Workman why anybody would want to use filter patch bags in a mini micron environment instead of something like cakes in the hydra pod. So I had to set him straight ... je je je .... Actually I"m glad he brought it up because it motivated me to start writing this.

So this is the begginng of a new filter patch bag tek and info I"ll be putting together in the weeks to come. Please read on.


Actually Ralphster the bags are the way to go.  Those bags have been being used in the professional mycology world for many years for gourmet mushroom species. Even Stamets has changed over to them. In fact most of his kits he has been sending out as posted on Stamets website, for many years use filter patch bags.

Have you ever ordered one of his kits....???
Most of them come with colonized substrate in filter patch bags.....
They are a micro envrironment all by themself. Some of his kits...such as Oyster mushrooms... he sends an extra bag out and suggest putting it over the colonized bag and misting inside of it to create more humidity....hang it over the sink...its ready to fruit right out of the bag........(bags for dummy tek :smile: That is pretty much the same concept of the SporeWorks micronenvironment bags.


The big crossover is many of us in the psilocybe school of thought growers have been using jars for so long were all adapt to that. Many books have been written on using jars.......the PF TEK was written on jars..we all followed the jar teks....filter patch bags were not readily available untiil recently.

Most of the books and teks out there on psilocybes are geared for jars, bottom line. Personally I think its time for change.


www.thehawkseye.com have not used jars in over a year in most cases.
We got turned on to these bags some 18 months ago and through trial and error found some very good manufactures of filter patch bags in many sizes and straight up....THEY ARE THE BOMB !!!
We found some companies did not produce a bag that with stood the sterilization processes well at all. Some leaked...:(

Any of you that have been around for a long time...I've had the inspiration of filter patch bags for many many years.
I've had these pics posted on my website for 3+ years....




MY idea ....fueled by Stamets kits...and a few contam outbreaks......was to surround the substrate with these bags
yet if you will notice....jars still inside.

That is old school thought and it worked for many years. I was trained to think psilos need jars to produce good spawn, as are many of you do.

Ok...I've learnd a lot in the past 2 years.... and I think its time to post it and share all I have learned. Jars have been out for a very long time with us...as you can see from the DB kits. There are much easier ways to produce good subtrate and save a lot of money and time.

Of course these filter patch bags are not going to replace jars anytime soon, but they are a much better alternative in my opinion.

As you can see Sporeworks is using them as a mini micro environment, it works. Its basically the same as when mushrooms fruit in the jars, except in a bag now :wink:. Same concept www.fungi.com Stamets has been using for years.
This is a bold statement but true, any small enough container using colonized substrate really does not need a casing soil or humidity source. It creates enough humidity from the substrate, and if you have a rough enough surface its going to produce some fruits.
I certainly dont think Sporeworks is trying to direct anyone towards any record flushes with those min micro environment bags, just another simple way of getting some mushrooms for little effort on the end user :smile:

Where we have found these filter patch bags to be so effective is for producing spawn for the casing. No more jars !!
These bags are so much easier to work with and much cheaper then canning jars

You can buy them in many sizes with variations of the filter for gas exhanges as well.
Filters can provide gas exchange, but exclude water vapor, so your spawn does not dehydrate.

You can use about any substrate with them, even wood chips if you buy the thicker plastic bags.

So how do you use them ?? Simple.
Prepare your substrate as you normally would. Scoop it into the bags. Seal it, then autoclave it. Store them like you would jars of substrate. When fully colonized, just cut it open and poor out your substrate into your casing container or mix with your bulk substrate.

I would imagine you could use them with a pot of boiling water for steam as you do jars. They can certainly with stand the heat of a pressure canner. For a pot of water to steam them you would just need keep them off the bottom so water does not splash up an into the filter, but even that would not hurt much as not much water is going to get in unless you immerse it in water.

You do need a sealer for sealing the opening. But you dont have to have one of these expensive models like you see in professional mushrooom farms. Simple little $15 Eurosealers work fine for home grower hobbiest. As you can see there are 2 different ones posted in the pics above.
You can find these sealers many places on line, just do search for euro sealer or food sealer. Here are a few.

  RE-SEALER $13
Euro-Sealer$18  same website

1800seen on TV This site has a bunch of different sealer models for about $7 to $10.

There was a new version of the EuroSealer I seen on an infocommercial, EuroSealer 2. It was larger and looked like a better unit. I ordered it but it neve came, that was some 3 to 4 months ago. I cant seem to find it online anywhere either. If anyone runs across it please post a link.

So back to the bags, using them instead of jars. We prefer the smaller upright bags, 5 x 4 x 18,  or 4 x 3 x 14 for spawn.
They work great in place of jars. And the substrate colonizes faster then in jars. How many times have you all tried to use a jar of spawn larger then a 1/2 pint and it seemed like it took forever to colonize? Or it stalled on the way?
And why is it 1/2 pint regular jars, non wide mouth jars colonize so slow ?? I've always considered that one a huge mystery :smile:

With these bags you can easily use a pint or even a quart of substrate and they will colonize much faster then in jars and they wont stall. You can shake them around a little to help stimulate growth faster, and since they hold in moisture so well the substrate usually does not dry  out like as in pint or quart jars.

Ok..this is taking longer then I thought and I have things to do. I'll put an FAQ togther on this subject later this week.
And this subject really belongs in the cultivation forum.

But for now..here are a few pro's and cons of filter patch bags vs canning jars for mushroom subtrate.
Filter Patch Bags Pros:
They are much easier to work with then jars.
Mushroom mycelium colonizes faster in the bags then jars.
Mushrooms can fruit within the bags easier then jars if you want to use such a lazy tek :smile:
They are cheap, can be bought as low as $0.17 to $0.25 cents each. + S&H. Jars cost around $0.58 to $1.00 each
and are very expensive to ship as they are much much heavier.
They provide better gas exchange and help keep in water vapor better then canning jars.
The subtrate cools down faster in a bag then in a glass jar.
You dont have to punch a bunch of holes in a metal lid.
You dont have to worry about rusty metal lids or cutting yourself on the jagged metal from the holes.
You dont need to buy filter discs anymore, the bags come with a filter patch built in.
You dont need the dry vermiculite layer on top of the substrate.
They are much much lighter then glass jars.

Cons:
They are not meant to be reusable.
You wont have that nice symetrical round shape with your substrate as from cakes.
They wont stack as easily as jars. Especially if your using boiling water to steam the subtratee for sterilization.
You do need a sealer to make them work (or use a hot knife or lighther, sloppy though.)

I'll think of some things later.
One thing to note, you can take the bags right out of your pressure cooker and put them in a bowl or dish or whatever to create the shape you want your substrate to grow in. This would be handy for devices such as the HydraPod where the cake formation is important. But in fact, this may work better as you create a larger round formation with a bigger cropping surface. instead of 5 or 6 small cakes, how about 1 big substrate cake?? Same thing with your terraniums.

I'll work on this subject some more later in the week. I need to post this over in the cultivation forum anyway.

Oh..so where do you get them. Well, I noticed several on line vendors have them such as Mycelium Fruits and Fungi Perfecti carries the large bags. You pay a higher price but your paying for the service as well so that should be expected.

If you want to buy them in bulk at a cheaper price get them from www.Unicornbags.com

They are 25 cents each, unless you buy about a 1,000 of them at a time, then he gives a discount down to like 17 cents each. But you can always buy 100 of them at a time and pay just 25 cents each + S&H.
A warning when you order from this company, they are asian and only the guy speaks good english :smile: He is real nice though and easy to work with. Be sure and specify you want the "B" style type bags for autoclaving. He also likes to file things under a company name, just give him your name for a company name if you dont have one.
I'll start carrying these smaller bags on my website here in a couple of weeks for a cheap price for at least a couple of months so my customers can have easy access to them as well.

Ok..thats all for now. I'll be back later in the week with more detailed info and put together some FAQ for beginners on using these filter patch bags :smile:


--------------------
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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526768 - 01/20/02 07:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This is all rather unorganized at the moment but if anybody wants to post some questions and thoughts I can add that into the FAQ/TEK I'll put together on this subject and make it much more organized. And I"ll even add in some pictures etc.. to make it more understandable and visual :smile:


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526775 - 01/20/02 07:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

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Edited by enter (01/20/02 07:34 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526776 - 01/20/02 07:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, this all sounds good, but what am I gonna do with the 100 jars I already have? Still, worth alot of thought. Thanks Ryche.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: ]
    #526783 - 01/20/02 07:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You can make Jam! :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Thor]
    #526789 - 01/20/02 07:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hehe! I don't like the stuff. Seriously, I have a bunch of jars, a bunch of plastic lids, I don't use filter disks so I'm pretty good to go for awhile. But maybe sometime......


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: World Spirit]
    #526796 - 01/20/02 07:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yes.. the Unicorn Bags company I have used many times. They're website is nothing special though, but they do come through with quality bags.


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526798 - 01/20/02 08:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: World Spirit]
    #526810 - 01/20/02 08:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Eurosealer's suck, contrary to what the hawk will tell you. They work fine for the first two seals. After that, the battery is too dead to seal the thick bags.

Just get a real impulse sealer from ebay. There are almost always several on there for $40 or less. I got a 12 in sealer for $20 or so.

Bags aren't for the ecologicaly sensitive as they aren't reusable like glass is.

Also, they require a good bit more sterility as you will need to cool the bag in a sterile environment, then innoculate it, then seal it. That's a much larger contam risk than a pf or polyfill style jar which is sealed and filtered as soon as it comes out of the cooker.

The alternative spawn bag that I can't believe more people don't use is 3m's method. Use a autoclavable bag without a filter. Use polyfill quilt batting and electrical tape to seal the top. Cheaper, doesn't require a sealer, can be innoculated via needle through the batting, and can be sealed prior to cooking. I recomend either doing that for bags, or get a real impulse sealer (and a flow hood IMO).


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I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (01/20/02 08:24 PM)


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #526819 - 01/20/02 08:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

See...now that is some great info mycofile just posted as to where to get impulse sealers for cheap. I never thought of checking ebay.
The small eurosealers I had worked fine. I had 2 different models, one with AC power, one with battery. They do require some time to get use to there sealing method but they work, just not as good as professional impulse sealer does.

Well if you think about it, jars lids are not for the ecology sensative either since they rust and have to be thrown out eventually and new lids bought.
UNLESS... you use the plastic kind.
Which reminds me, I've been getting a lot of email messages of ppl asking me where to get those lids. You can buy them directly from Ball at 1-800-240-3340 for those of you who still wish to use jars, these plastic lids are great. Ball calls them "Plastic Storage Caps" and they are autoclavable. They are very cheap if ordered through ball, like $3 for 8 of them.

As for 3m's method, what is polyfill quilt batting ?? Perhaps there is a link to his method....?? I can always add that into the faq/tek.





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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526821 - 01/20/02 08:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Your right mycofile, I just did a search on ebay for impulse sealer and there is a bunch of them on there for very reasonable prices. Thanks for the tip :)


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526858 - 01/20/02 09:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Good post ryche. Bags rule. I've been using them for about 4 years now. Mostly for sterilizing compost, but have used them for making bags of rye substrate. I first started using them for shiitakes using wood chips and rye. They worked good for them and then i started using the brf/verm method only upped the amounts of ingredients. Now they work awesome for compost also. Contrary to to popular belief, you don't need a flow hood to be successful with fp bags. I used them for a year before i had my flowhoods, and rarely had contamination. I usually only did 2 (2 fit nice in a 22qt. cooker) and used 1/2 qt. jar of spawn per bag. Cleaning the air with alcohol/water and working quickly, open air transfers are no problem. I also used the earosealer for awhile, but a regular 16" thermo sealer is so sweet.


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InvisibleXochipili
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526863 - 01/20/02 10:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How many bags must one buy to get the 17-25 cent price? do they have a minimum of 1000 bags.
Why are these bags (ones from FP) not re-usable? I ask because i have re-used them before. I paid a buck a piece. i cooked the casing in it, and later used it to cook some more. no problems were had. One last thing, I simply used a hair tie to tie the top of the bag closed. it worked well. i twisted the bag above the filter patch, and then turned it back downward toward the bag. i wrapped the hair elastic around the twisted top several times. the top was closed and the filter allowed air exchange. yup, a hair elastic...


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #526865 - 01/20/02 10:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: ralphster44]
    #526953 - 01/21/02 12:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

good info. thanx ryche. My ? has to do with how you go about getting your spores, spawn etc.. in the bags after sterilization? Any helpfull sterility tips? what size bags do you personally use? thanx again.


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Anonymous

Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: kropotkin]
    #526994 - 01/21/02 01:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ryche or Workman

Let me get this straight.

You buy the bags containing pre-sterilized substrate, pump in a couple of squirts from your favorite spore syringe in a sterile manner and tape over the hole. Put the bags back in the box, check on it over the next several days, occasionally shaking bags to mix substrate. Upon colonization of substrate, expose daily to a few minutes of light and watch your shrooms grow?

Leaf


Edited by Anonymous (01/21/02 02:12 AM)


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #527005 - 01/21/02 01:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ryche you said you seal them before sterilizing? My friend always used clothes pins otherwise they would pop. Also he still hasnt suceded with rye yet. Do you have any advice on the rye or bags poping when sealed? Straw however seemed to work really well although it didnt seem to colonize as fast as they say probably 8 days.


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: durban_poison]
    #527178 - 01/21/02 10:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've recently started using filter patch bags from FP and I sealed before I sterilized using a eurosealer also. No bags popped or any other seemingly problems. (small leaks could have occurred during PCing as I also used packing tape over both sides of the seal after cooling just to be sure)

BTW when would it be a good time to shake. My bag of birdseed/verm is approximately 1/5 colonized depending on how much is colonized that can't be seen. As of now I am going to wait until 25% colonization unless someone here can advize me differently.


Edited by High_Beemz (01/21/02 10:41 AM)


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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: High_Beemz]
    #527185 - 01/21/02 10:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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Re: Filter Patch bags VS. Canning jars for substrate [Re: ralphster44]
    #527214 - 01/21/02 11:02 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

hawk, check http://www.theforestfloor.org/archives/main/3m's_No_Shake_Grain_Tek.html for 3m's bag tek. Works well and certainly worthy of any comprehensive faq that gets put together.

The eurosealer I had was battery operated, and sucked. The batteries died after one use. It would work for thin bags, but not the large thick ones.

Ralph, of course bags work well for pans. They work for any fungus. What you put in the bag is the species specific part. Bags of grain spawn can be used to grow cubes as well as pans as well as garden giants. For an example of pan specific bag info, however, check:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=377568&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=1

Sealed bags in a PC will pop. If they don't pop, then they probably just made little holes in the seals that you can't see. The filter patch doesn't let enough air through fast enough to compensate for all the steam. That's the beauty of 3m's way. The batting keeps the bag from popping, but keeps it sealed as well.

Then again, I almost always used filter patch bags, grain transfers from quart jars, an impulse sealer, and a flowhood. The way it was meant to be. I guess you can skimp wherever you want, but bags and sealers are cheap. Flowhoods aren't absolutely neccessary, but if you make your own, aren't that pricey either.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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