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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117610 -

Expound.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117613 -

I know people that have gotten the flu vaccine and later on became sick with the flu.

They must have gotten too large a dose to be effective.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117619 -

you guys are hilarious.

when assumption suits your case you latch on to it, when it doesnt you demand that it is not absolute and has no value.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117627 -

Could we also use this 'technology' to power cars and solve the world's hunger?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #5117631 -

Swami said:
Expound.



gladly....

every year national media has "in-depth coverage" of the flu front and tells you all about "what you can do to avoid it this SEASON" (see it is almost a holiday!).

why should that not have as much of a hypochondriac effect on the populous as placebo has with "healing"?

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117634 -

What assumption? Every test of homeopathy was either inconclusive or a flat-on-its-face total failure.

P. T. Barnam was SOOOO right. :rofl2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117640 -

every test?

Quote:
There has also been some good scientific research published in medical journals and other scientific publications. The LANCET (September 20, 1997) published a review of 89 double-blind or randomized placebo- controlled clinical trials. The authors conclude that the clinical effects of homeopathic medicines are not simply the results of placebo. In fact, they found that homeopathic medicines had a 2.45 times greater effect than placebo.



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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #5117643 -

Swami said:
Could we also use this 'technology' to power cars and solve the world's hunger?



no more than we can rely on aspirin to do the same....

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117660 -

A critique of your reference:

"The problem is there is no such thing as clinical homeopathy. No one trained and licensed in homeopathy would recommend a single, identical remedy for patients with a certain disease or condition.

Homeopathy is based on the belief that "like cures like". Diluted medicinal substances (which look like tiny white pellets) are prescribed to treat an individual's unique symptoms.

For example, if we brought together a hundred people with rheumatoid arthritis and interviewed them, they would not all have the same symptoms. Certain factors would aggravate symptoms in some but not others. A homeopath distinguishes between these various subtypes and finds a suitable, individual remedy that matches all of that person's symptoms (hence like cures like).

To give everyone with a certain disease or condition the same remedy is not considered homeopathy. The Lancet meta-analysis included studies that may have been statistically sound, but should have been excluded because they lacked a fundamental understanding of what homeopathy is.

In addition, many view the use of complex homeopathy and isopathy as merely "educated guesses", because patients receive remedies that again are not individualized but are commonly used for such conditions. There is no guarantee that the remedy is correct.

Such a major problem in the study should have been detected before the article was published."


SOURCES: Shang, A. The Lancet, Aug. 27, 2005; vol 366: pp 726-732. Vandenbroucke, J.P. The Lancet, Aug. 27, 2005; vol 366: pp 691-692. News release, National Center for Homeopathy. Matthias Egger, MD, director, department of social and preventive medicine, University of Berne, Switzerland.

And we're back where we started. Every single test has been either inconclusive or a failure.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117668 -

i dont think that really negates my source.

basically it is just some guy giving the old rumsfeld anti-poetry run-a-round and dismisses an entire study with no more of an explanation than "they lacked a fundamental understanding of what homeopathy is".....
maybe he has proof and explanation as to why this is, but so far it is really just one guy making some half-assed accusation with no grounding.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117683 -

i dont think that really negates my source.

I dunno where you're getting the 'some guy' reference.

My source is The Lancet year 2005 refuting your source from The Lancet year 1997. If The Lancet is good enough for you to quote, it should be good enough for you to accept a refutation from. :shrug:



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117694 -

it is still just one person dismissing a study.

The study is still not negated.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117707 -

it is still just one person dismissing a study

It's The Lancet itself that is refuting its own study by publishing the refutation.

The refutation was written by TWO people and The National Center for Homeopathy. What more do you want?

SOURCES: Shang, A. The Lancet, Aug. 27, 2005; vol 366: pp 726-732. Vandenbroucke, J.P. The Lancet, Aug. 27, 2005; vol 366: pp 691-692. News release, National Center for Homeopathy. Matthias Egger, MD, director, department of social and preventive medicine, University of Berne, Switzerland.

Gawd, every rationalization to support superstition and avoid the Truth. :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117717 -

Quote:
Whenever critics may say That HOMEOPATHY does not have any good research. we can confidently inform them that they are not familiar with The SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE. The following summarizes a number of good double-blind Homeopathy studies including both LABORATORY STUDIES as well as CLINICAL RESEARCH. HOMEOPATHY also has a most IMPRESSIVE ACCUMULATION OF STATISTICS that has been acquired over The last 200 years. In a time and age when medicines have a rapid turnover due to harmful side effects or ineffectiveness, Homeopathy has stood the TEST OF TIME. As basic truths will always exist, so have the remedies of Homeopathy. It should be known that In 1975 the U.S. CONGRESS OFFICE OF TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT estimated That only 10-20% of all CONVENTIONAL MEDICAL PRACTICES have been shown to be EFFICACIOUS BY CONTROLLED TRAIL. 1

EARLY HOMEOPATHY RESEARCH ? To the surprise of most, The FIRST DOUBLE BLIND CROSS-OVER STUDY EVER PERFORMED was done in 1906 BY HOMEOPATHS. This impressive study was done concurrently in eleven different cities on fifteen subjects. This particular experiment consisted of 665 pages, which was The Research Provings of BELLADONNA. 2

Also at the turn of The century. a book was published called "The LOGIC OF FIGURES or COMPARATIVE RESULTS OF HOMEOPATHICAND OTHER TREATMENTS. This book provides dozens of charts comparing dis-ease and death rates in Homeopathic and Allopathic Hospitals. This also included the epidemic diseases of scarlet fever, yellow fever, typhoid. etc. The HOMEOPATHIC HOSPITALS usually had 50 TO 80% LESS DEATHS PER 100 PEOPLE, depending on The disease compared.

Another early double blind Homeopathy study was sponsored by the BRITISH GOVERNMENT DURING WORLD WAR II, The experiment demonstrated that those given Homeopathic Remedies experienced SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN BURNS FROM MUSTARD GAS in comparison to those given a Placebo. A 1982 review provided further substantiation of the statistical significance of the Homeopathy research. 3, 4

LABORATORY EVIDENCE ? The number one criticism of the scientific community has been the "infinitesimal" nature or the dilution principle of Homeopathy. Homeopaths do agree that once a remedy is diluted beyond 24x or 12C potencies. they are diluted beyond Avagadro's Number (6.23 x 10-23) which theoretically indicates that no molecules are present in the original substance. However, both LABORATORY AND CLINICAL RESULTS over The last 190 years have demonstrated definite effectiveness with Homeopathic remedies beyond this dilution.

A recent NUCLEAR MAGNETIC RESONANCE (NMR) study showed that all twenty-three different Homeopathic Remedies and Potencies tested had DISTINCTIVE READINGS OF SUBMOLECULAR ACTIVITY, while The Placebos did not. This demonstrates That homeopathy's function is not so much chemical but energetic. As Chiropractors, you will observe dramatic clearing of sensory nerve Interference and pathological reflex activity causing chronic recurring subluxation activity and dis-ease.5

ANTIVIRAL

A recent double-blinded study has shown THE ANTIVIRAL EFFECT OF HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES EIGHT OF THE TEN remedies tested INHIBITED VIRUSES in chicken embryos from 50 to 100 PERCENT depending on The potencies used.6

HEAVY METALS

The respected journal. HUMAN TOXICOLOGY. published a study showing that Homeopathic doses of arsenic eliminated crude doses of trapped arsenic that had been previously fed to rats.7

LOWERED SERUM CHOLESTEROL

Four German Scientists at a Veterinary College showed That Homeopathic Chelidonium had LOWERED SERUM CHOLESTEROL when given twice a day to rabbits on a cholesterol rich diet.8

REDUCED LABOR PROBLEMS

British Veterinarian, Christopher Day, had conducted several pilot studies demonstrating how Homeopathic Remedies had REDUCED LABOR PROBLEMS in cattle. STILL BIRTHS in pigs, and MASTITIS in catlle.9

ANTI-CANCER

The Cancer Research Center in India found that of the 77 mice That received a transplant in FIBROSARCOMA, 52 PERCENT SURVIVED more than one year with Homeopathic Remedies. The 77 mice That were untreated died within 10-15 days.10

PAIN CONTROL

Scientists at a BRITISH SCHOOL of PHARMACY found that rodents given Hypericum were able to INHIBIT PAIN RESPONSES. Rodents were able to remain on a hot plate longer than the control group. When given NaLoxone. which inhibits pain killing endorphins, the protective effects of Hypericum was reduced, showing that Homeopathic Hypericum activates endorphins when needed. Please note that these rodents were free to walk off the hot plate whenever discomfort was noticed.11

ALLERGIES

Homeopathic Apis and Histamine have a significant effect on reducing the release of certain allergy-causing chemicals from Basophils, which demonstrates one reason for Homeopathy?s positive effects on allergies.12

IMPROVED IMMUNE FUNCTION

A respected pharmacology journal showed that Homeopathic Silica had a significant effect on STIMULATING MACROPHAGES in mice, which destroy foreign particles, bacteria, and old cells.13

RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS

CLINICAL EVIDENCE: The British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology published a double-blind Homeopathy experiment on patients with RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS. An IMPRESSIVE 82 PERCENT OF THOSE GIVEN A HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE EXPERIENCED SOME RELIEF OF SYMPTOMS, while only 21 percent of Those given a placebo experienced any similar degree of improvement. 14

DENTAL NEURALGIA

Another double-blind Homeopathy trial was conducted on patients with DENTAL NEURALGIC PAIN FOLLOWING tooth extraction. An impressive 76 PERCENT of those given the Homeopathic medicine Arnica and Hypericum EXPERIENCED RELIEF OF PAIN.15

VERTIGO & NAUSEA

The respected GERMAN PHARMACOLOGICAL JOURNAL demonstrated a statistically significant improvement in REDUCING VERTIGO AND NAUSEA with a Homeopathic combination formula.16

REDUCED LABOR TIME & COMPLICATIONS

French researchers recently completed a double-blind trial using a Homeopathic Formula to TREAT PREGNANT WOMEN. The study found this Homeopathic Formula to REDUCE LABOR TIME and DECREASE ABNORMAL LABOR. The average labor time of the women given the Homeopathic Formula was 5.1 HOURS, while the Placebo Group was 8.5 HOURS. ONLY 11.3 PERCENT OF THE WOMEN GIVEN THE HOMEOPATHIC FORMULA had any ABNORMAL LABOR, while 40 PERCENT of the Placebo Group had an ABNORMAL LABOR,17



if you want more i will go get them. Have fun discrediting all these.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117729 -

Have fun discrediting all these

There's nothing to discredit as there's not a single science journal referenced (or any other kind of journal for that matter) where I can go read the source of these claims. :shrug:

[Note to audience: Observe the familiar frantic search for any shred to support superstition rather than a reasoned, careful search for the Truth, whatever it may be.]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/29/05 02:28 AM)

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117731 -

'Professor' George Vilthoukas leading proponent for homeopathy:

Most of the papers published on homeopathic trials till today are confused and confusing. In homeopathy, there is no such thing as giving a remedy for a specific ailment or disease. The idea of double blind research is valid for conventional medicine but not for homeopathy ...


Science applies to conventional medicine, but NOT to homeopathy! How convenient. How many different scientific methods are there? There is only one. This is the typical excuse-making prevalent in EVERY SINGLE fringe field where no hard evidence exists.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117738 -

Note that no one tackled my opening post which laid the fallacy bare.  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117740 -

oh... you want sources....

Quote:
1 Office of Technology Assessment, Assessing the Safety and Efficacy of Medical Technology (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office. September 1978) p. 7.

2. Howard P. Bellows. The Test Drug Proving of the O.O. and L. Society: A Reproving of Belladonna (Boston: The American Homeopathic Ophthalmological, Otological, and Laryngological Society. 1906).

3. J. Paterson. "Report on Mustard Gas Experiments," Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy. 37 (1944): 47-50. 88-92.

4. R.M.M. Owen and G. Ives, "The Mustard Gas Experiments of The British Homeopathic Society: 1941-1942," Proceedinas of The 35th International Homeopathic Congress. 1982, pp. 258-259.

5. Adam Sacks. "Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy of Homeopathic Remedies," Journal of Holistic Medicine, 5 (Fall-Winter 1983): 172-175: RB. Smith and G.W. Boericke, "Changes Caused By Succussion on N.M.R, Patterns and Bioassay of Bradykinin Triacetate (BKTA) Succussions and Dilution Journal of The American Institute of Homeopathy, 61 (November-December 1968): 197-212.

6, L.M. Singh and G. Gupta, "Antiviral Efficacy of Homeopathic Drugs Against Animal Viruses," British Homeopathic Journal, 74 (July 1985): 168-174.

7. J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987.

8. V. Baumans, C.J. Bol, W.M.T. oWe Luttikhuis, and A.C. Beynen. "Does Chelidonium 3X Lower Serum Cholesterol?" British Homeopathic Journal, 76 (January 1987): 14-15.

9. Christopher Day, "Control of Stillbirths in Pigs Using Homeopathy." Veterinary Record, 114 (March 3, 1984): 216 reprinted in American Institute of Homeopathy, 779 (December 1986): 146-147.

Christopher Day, "Clinical Trials in Bovine Mastitis: Use of Nosodes for Prevention," British Homeopathic Journal, 75 (January 1986): 11-15.

10. H. Choudhury, "Cure of Cancer in Experimental Mice with Certain Biochemic Salts," British Homeopathic Journal, 69 (1980): 168-170.

11. G.R. Keysall, K.L. Williamson, and B.D. Tolman. "The Testing of Some Homeopathic Preparations in Rodents, "Proceedings of the 40th International Homeopathic Congress (Lyon. France, 1985). pp. 228-231,

12. Jean Boiron. Jacky Abecassls. and Philippe Belon. "The Effects of Hahnemannian Potencies of 7c Histaminum and 7c Apis Mellifica upon Basophil Degranulation in Allergic Patients." Aspects of Research in Homoepathy (Lyon: Boiron, 1983), pp. 61-66.

13. Elizabeth Davenas. Bernard Poitevin, and Jacques Benveniste, Effect on Mouse Peritoneal Macrophages of Orally Administered Very High Dilutions of Silica,"European Journal of Pharmacology. 135 (April 1987): 313-319.

14. PG. Gibson, S. L.M. Gibson, AD. MacNeil. et al.. "Homeopathic Therapy in Rheumatoid Arthritis: Evaluation Double-Blind Controlled Trial,"British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 9 (1980): 453-459.

15. Henry Albertini et al.. "Homeopathic Treatment of Neuralgia Using Arnica and Hypericum: A Summary of 60 Observations," Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy. 78 (September 1985): 126-128.

16. C.F. Claussen, J. Bergmann. G. Bertora .and E. Claussen. "Homoopathische Kombinatlon bel Vertigo and Nausea." Arzneim. Forsch/Drug Res., 34(1984) 1791-98.

17. Pierre Dorfman, Marie Noel Lasserre. and Max Tetau, "Preparation a l?accounchement par homeopathie: Experimentation en double-insu versus placebo" (Preparation for Birth by Homeopathy; Experimentation by Double-Blind Versus Placebo), Cahrs de Biotherapie. 94 (April 1987): 77-81.

10. IFOP Survey, Paris, 1985.

19. "Medecines douches: La revanche de l?homeopathie." Le Nouvel Observateur, April 12. 1985, pp. 36-41.

20. Jugal Kishore. "Homeopathy: The Indian Experience," World Health Forum, (1983): 107,

Ibid.. p. 106.




follow the numbers.

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5117743 -

they are all pretty old. got any later dated ones?


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #5117747 -

Swami said:
Note that no one tackled my opening post which laid the fallacy bare.  :rolleyes:



slow down napoleon... and re-read the thread.

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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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