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 Mordor
cyborg savage
Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 118
Loc: North
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
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 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? 
#456910 - 11/13/01 11:24 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey Guys,
Decided to graduate to spawn bags and have a couple of concerns. Been using qrt jars for a while now and have had huge success. So I assumed the transition would be an easy one. The bags are from FP. I have been pre-cooking rye as always, allowing it too steam off for an hour to remove excess moisture. PC'ing two bags (10qrts) at a time.
I have been using rye spawn from qrt jars(about 125-175 ml) to innoc the bags. The problem is there seems to be too much moisture left in the bags. A lot of condensation is forming on the inside and causing some mushy spots. Temps are fine at 86f. It seems the spawn starts out fine, but then stalls. And I know from past experiences that mushy rye spells disaster. Should I be putting less rye in the bags? Perhaps 2-3 qrts. Is it best to sit the bags up while they colonize or lay them flat like a pancake. Does it even matter?
The bags are allowed to cool overnight before innocing. Should more spawn be put in. I've heard 5-10% by volume, is this about right?
Anyone with experience with these bags have any insight here? Thanks in advance.
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It's life. The dark that binds you. - InFlames.
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 ar393
old timer
Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 702
Loc: VT
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 Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#457037 - 11/13/01 01:51 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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My 1/50th of a dollar:
make sure the bags are not sitting in the water, that was my first mistake in using those bags, or any bag for that matter. Somehow or another water gets in there, I did a few different experiments to make sure i wasnt on crack. what I have moved onto experimenting is using empty pretzel kegs (I have a large PC that barely fits one) and even though its not the greatest plastic (it melts a bit) I use one pretzel keg to PC about 2 dry quarts or maybe a bit more (its a ton of Rye once its wet and PCed) and then i spread that into 2 or three other pretzel kegs (the kegs have been rinsed with 70% ETOH) and then i dump a full colonized QT jar into each. I think a reason i end up stalling is due to lack of air. so I am starting (soon enough) to use MM FilterDiscs and I'lll let you know what happens when I have data on that.
peace, ar393
I hope my rambling helped you out a bit.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#461607 - 11/17/01 06:46 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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The more grain in a bag/jar, the lower you want the overall moisture content to be, according to TMC. I'd steep them for a shorter period, or just add a couple spoons of dry verm after precooking. (I recomend the verm actually) Or, if you aren't already using gypsum in your formula, add it after pcooking, it will absorb some excess moisture, provide minerals neccessary for psilo production and keep the grain loose.
Bags should be laid flat like a pancake, filter side up. If you didn't get a "balloon" of air by inflating the bag in a flow hood prior to sealing, make sure to pull the bag off of the top of the grain as much as possible. This allows maximum air exchange, vital for preventing sogginess and excess sweating which occurs with large batches.
A good bit more than 20 cups of birdseed has been used in FP's bags with repeated success so you should be fine with 10 qts.
BTW, I'd drop the incubation temp a little. Remember that the center of substrate in a jar or a bag is warmer than the outside. This differential is even greater when dealing with the larger masses of sub in bags of jars. The substrate can generate enough heat to effectively kill the mycelium, or at least damage it enough to stall it. In the 20+ cup bags, right at 80 seemed ideal. The higher temps also favor bacteria which combined with the also bacto-favorable excess moisture condition is a death sentence. Symptoms like stalling, or failing to recover after "shaking" often come from bacteria.
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#461610 - 11/17/01 06:50 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh yeah, also remember to Pcook longer the more densely you have packed to cooker. 2 full filter patch bags got a standard 2 hour cook time in a 22 qt. pcooker back when the squirel was cultivatin.
That could be a problem. Endospores are hard to kill in dense substrates. you may be only killing a few of them, hence the initial success of the mycelium. But as soon as a few endospores hatch, the much faster cycle of the bacteria beats out the myc. or the disturbance of shaking gives them a foothold.
--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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durban_poison
myco contractor
Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 2,417
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 Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#461796 - 11/17/01 11:25 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I have been having problems with bags also, to much moisture. I just started and 1 out of 6 bags took. Guess I will hope for better luck next time. The other problem must have been with pressure cooking?
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: durban_poison]
#461821 - 11/17/01 11:56 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Took me a while to figure out the best way to do rye, in jars or bags. I had moisture and bacterial probs until I figured out to soak the grain for ~24h, and then simmer it for about 15 minutes until the grains swell.
The 24 is to be sure the endospores have germinated, and the quick cooking is to get to optimum moisture.
I agree that gypsum or verm is helpful in bulk culture.
- AE
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,168
Loc: my room
Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: altarego]
#462092 - 11/18/01 09:01 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>The 24 is to be sure the endospores have germinated
If the grain is fresh and the temeperatures high, the grain will germinate after 24 hours. And you don?t want this.
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Anno]
#462105 - 11/18/01 09:38 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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True, but it doesn't seem to be a problem if you don't go over 24h, however.
- AE
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Mordor
cyborg savage
Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 118
Loc: North
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#463492 - 11/19/01 02:17 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the help guys. We'll give'r a shot. Verm or gypsum sounds like the way to go. Thanks again, I'll let ya know.
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It's life. The dark that binds you. - InFlames.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: Mordor]
#465086 - 11/20/01 10:10 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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make sure you cook long enough, and I still recomend dropping your incubation temperature....
--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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Mordor
cyborg savage
Registered: 05/15/01
Posts: 118
Loc: North
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
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Re: 5 qrts rye in one bag too much? [Re: mycofile]
#465511 - 11/21/01 10:15 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well, out of 12 bags, one took. It is 85% colonized without shaking in only a week. Rest are goners, just too much moisture. Although they were moving along quite nicely. So there is some hope. Will try to hydrate rye less today and see what that does. Will PC a little longer. And I dropped the temp to 80. Thanks again.
--------------------
It's life. The dark that binds you. - InFlames.
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