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OfflineMXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork?
    #4568883 - 08/23/05 01:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Hey All,

I have a question I thought maybe a few expanded minds here could help me with. First of all, we must accept for the purposes of this argument that human beings experience awareness or consciousness. Okay. my question is why? Why are we aware? Why is there room for "us" in any of all this? I mean, as I understand it. All life, as we know it, is basically just infrequently mutating DNA, through trial and error (natural selection), finding clever machines to build around itself so that it can reproduce. Okay, if we accept this view of nature, we as humans become nothing more than elaborate mech suits with highly specialized neural structures at the top of our body whose sole purpose is the same as the fruit fly; overcome the obstacles of the environment and reproduce, proving our genes/suits able. Or failing and removing our genes from the game.

If we accept that this is all that we are, why is our existence not solely a mechanical one? Why is there a dimension of awareness? I mean, is my PC aware? It can remember, recognize, react to stimuli. Furthermore, if we accept that my PC is not aware and say that we are, why is it that evolution produced it's most advanced computer (us) with awareness? Instead of a simply cold, hard, calculating model such as my Pentium 4? I mean, if we build a clock complex enough, does it become aware of it's function? It seems to me that the answer is no, calculating machines can be built, but awareness seems different.

I know this is a ramble, but throw some ideas at me.


--------------------
Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened.

Pupil: Master, I do not understand...

Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
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Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: MXNR]
    #4568925 - 08/23/05 01:24 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps we are aware because we have yet to evolve out of it?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: MXNR]
    #4568964 - 08/23/05 01:32 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MXNR said:
If we accept that this is all that we are, why is our existence not solely a mechanical one? Why is there a dimension of awareness?




I believe this is a mechanical existence. Perhaps awareness is just part of the mechanics.


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OfflineMXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?
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Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: daimyo]
    #4568967 - 08/23/05 01:32 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

But I mean, what is the realm of awareness? If we accept that we are machines (molded by evolution, not the hands of man), and we accept that we have awareness. Than why is it that man has never been able to build a machine that contained awareness? How was it that evolution did it? What is the secret to creating a sentient being? Is it calculations per second? What can man only build calculation machines and nature can build psychologies?


--------------------
Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened.

Pupil: Master, I do not understand...

Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.


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OfflineMXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?
Male

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 406
Loc: MARS
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4568980 - 08/23/05 01:34 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

So you think our existense is simply a mechanical one? So do our mechanics, clocks, VCRS, etc. "Experience" as they go through their mechanics? Or are they just a bunch of moving parts?


--------------------
Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened.

Pupil: Master, I do not understand...

Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: MXNR]
    #4568998 - 08/23/05 01:38 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MXNR said:
So you think our existense is simply a mechanical one? So do our mechanics, clocks, VCRS, etc. "Experience" as they go through their mechanics? Or are they just a bunch of moving parts?




Theres really no way you could ever know. The only experience you can truly speak of is your own.

I'm gonna have to go with just a bunch of moving parts though.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: MXNR]
    #4569059 - 08/23/05 01:51 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think the reason man has yet to build a machine that is aware of it's existence, is because the technologies necessary to do this, are just now evolving.
What are the necessary technologies you ask? I do not know. Robotics is not my area.

Perhaps it is calculations per second. Maybe when a baby is born, they are not aware of themselves per se. However they possess the ultimate(currently) computer; the brain. From the moment they brain forms and starts doing it's things it does a whole lot of calculations examining everything that stimulates it. Through months or years of stimuli the child develops an understanding of self. Maybe that's how it is for mechanical devices.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: daimyo]
    #4569459 - 08/23/05 06:34 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

so few have a good enoiugh grip on the idea, that even a patent hasn't been achieved.

this is not simple like a water wheel (though parts of it are)
nor moderately complex like rocket science;
but, one day,
we will build things that process gestalts like us.

things that dream
it will be a serious crime to damage one.
as it is to harm one of us.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Awareness? Consciousness? Clockwork? [Re: MXNR]
    #4570366 - 08/23/05 12:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, give some more time to the humans, they just begun at this field of science before 50 years, where nature had some thousands of it :smile:
It will be interesting to see how awareness settles down on a highly complex thinking-machine. The realm of awareness touches a big part of spirituality itself. So perhaps, we someday can add natural science back to spirituality (or the way around), where natural science was brought out from spirituality once.

"Dave, will I dream ?"
"All intelligent creatures dream, Hal"


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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