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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Something to Ponder
    #4511099 - 08/08/05 06:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

A baby is born with a freak disorder. It has no touch nerve, smell, sight, sound or taste sense perception.

It still would be able to feel emotions, have full control over it's muscles and have full brain function.


What does it have to live with? Can it have any quality of life?

How do you think it would come to understand where it found itself or what itself was?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/08/05 06:47 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511120 - 08/08/05 06:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
A baby is born with a freak disorder. It has no touch nerve, smell, sight, sound or taste sense perception.

It still would be able to feel emotions, have full control over it's muscles and have full brain function.


What does it have to live with? Can it have any quality of life?

How do you think it would come to understand where it found itself or what itself was?




or another question, would "it" exist at all?

I've been pushing the idea that consciousness is something that recieves sensations, but perhapse I was wrong, perhapse consciousness exist only where there is a sensation, and no stimuli is equal to death


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511141 - 08/08/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i'm in the same boat OWS but then i wonder about sensory deprivation devices

(i've never been in one)

hallucinations take over instead of coma or non-consciousness, which is what you would expect if this theory were right


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511152 - 08/08/05 07:01 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you are forgetting something, you still have memory. Memory is also a form of sensation.

what if you never experienced anything, therefore gad no memory, for example you were a robot that was never activated before, then someone puts you in such a room, and activates you, would you really wake up?
Would you really be born?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511176 - 08/08/05 07:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i dunno man, i've been curious about this for a while, so let me bounce some stuff off you-

if the robot had a duplicated copy of a human brain, with neurons and synapses, etc, and assuming this is how the robot's brain worked-

the difference between an off-state and an on-state, would be that, in the on-state, the brain would be "open" to activity

hmmm... physiologically i wonder if the brain operates with no activity

i'm pretty sure neurons are always firing, and will fire even without stimulus (such as in a sensory deprivation tank)

i wonder if neurons fire in the womb (i guess yes)

i wonder when neurons start firing

my guess is it's possible to have a mind with no stimulus, regardless of memory

(this despite how much i would like to agree with you)


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511199 - 08/08/05 07:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

hmm.. i guess what i'm saying is that there is no mind without memory
as soon as you create a mind, you create implicit memory


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511219 - 08/08/05 07:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Of course the baby would and can exist. It can breath and eat and drink. It just can't taste or smell what it is eating and drinking or feel the cold of the silver spoon or glass it's holding. It can still hold things.

There are children with a disorder that does not allow for them to feel physical pain. They do everything else other kids do and break a shitload of bones, like over 200 by the age of two. They can't cautionary pain that tells them to stop or back off so they keep pushing themselves and "snap". They have no fear of getting hurt because they don't feel the physical pain so throw themselves around recklessly.

The memory part I am curious about. If only emotional stimulation is feeding the brain and memory bank, what would that be like? How would emotions be stimulated with out the 5 senses? Where would material to hallucinate with come from without the 5 senses and what would it be like.

Pondering this brings about a very surreal sensation and experience doesn't it?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511222 - 08/08/05 07:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i'm saying that if you get created/concieved in such a chamber, and your brain becomes open to stimuli, but nothing comes in, no memory is formed, is there consciousness then?


--------------------
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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511228 - 08/08/05 07:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

remember, it can recieve emotional stimuli.

What I wonder next is what sort of an emotional experience can one have without the 5 physical senses stimulating it?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511268 - 08/08/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
remember, it can recieve emotional stimuli.

What I wonder next is what sort of an emotional experience can one have without the 5 physical senses stimulating it?




i'm talking about this dark room without stimuli, you can't have any emotional stimuli


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511298 - 08/08/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i'm saying that if you get created/concieved in such a chamber, and your brain becomes open to stimuli, but nothing comes in, no memory is formed, is there consciousness then?



OWS i would say yes- you point out that memory can be a kind of stimulus- i would say when a mind is formed, memory happens with it- there is no mind without memory

IOW a baby is born into a sensory deprivation tank- a second womb- i imagine that the baby hallucinates, like a person does in a tank, yet completely original hallucinations, nothing borrowing on an outside world, no buddhas or fields or people

jiggy, if there were no input, not even memory, i dont see how a person could have emotional response? response is a response to a stimulus. i think it would feel nothing.

for the sake of argument let's say it feels something anyway- would it feel lonely? bored? happy for no reason? or sad since it senses on some deep level that something is missing?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511309 - 08/08/05 07:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

yea, but what fills the memory in moments of turning the brain on, if nothing changes regarding outside influences? No sound, no touch, no taste, no images, nothing, and no previous memory either.

what is there to remember in those moments?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511349 - 08/08/05 08:05 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

well this is my theory-

memory exists on a biological level as orientations of neurons and synapses. there is no mind that exists without these mnemonic orientations. as time passes, experiences affects these orientations. however, before experience passes over the mind, neurons and synapses already have an orientation.

so implicitly, each mind is born/created with memory, even though such memory is not based on any real experience. let's say i was born with a 'past life' as my memory- and all the things i had done in it. yet this past life turned out to be bogus-

i'm saying each person is born with memory, like past life memory, only nothing so convoluted. we're born just remembering something - something with no relationship to reality or the past.

that's how i resolve your paradox- it's my guess that there's is no mind without memory.


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511558 - 08/08/05 09:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

but memory is contents

you can't remember nothing. we are born with a system of memory, but the pathways in the brain lead nowhere.

My guess is that the first stimuli inside the vomb triggers the continuous chain of chemical and electrical reactions that in time form consciousness.

It's like first there is a a ray of light, and it starts changing everything in this huge sponge of a brain, it's chaos, and then other rays come in, and sounds come, and suddenly patterns start forming inside, and those patterns are memory and other things like thoughts , habits etc.

So brain life is a continuous chain of millions of nerve reactions that are like a chain reaction to the first stimuli that came to us in the vomb.

you know like a rikoshe (spelling?). A bullet that enters our head and starts bouncing everywhere creating all kinds of changes in the interior, in time, enough bullets draw a picture or two.

that said, human consciosuness would be an automatic continuous process, and there is no such thing as free will or control.
An image enters the brain, affects all kinds of clusters of cells, then they carry the information accoarding to the current brain settup, and there is a logical outcome, accoarding to the laws of physics, chemistry etc.

this is the kind of concept that alows AI.
It seems that its either free will or AI, because both can not coexist.

it's just a certain angle, doesn't have to be true


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511596 - 08/08/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

maybe you and i are on the same page here

you're saying there's a robot, you turn it on, with no memory, and no other stimulus, it would have no mind, its mind would not exist.

in a sense i think we agree, because i'm saying that a mind needs memory to exist, and you're saying, without memory (or any other stimulus) there is no mind.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4511663 - 08/08/05 09:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i'm talking about this dark room without stimuli, you can't have any emotional stimuli

In a dark room without stimuli you think emotions like fear to panic or calm to peace would not be felt?

I'm curious why you and crunchy were quick to turn this living breathing complex biology with brain function to move muscles at will, and process stimuli from the emotional place into something like a robot.

Maybe it would be like that. I'm wondering what leads you both to that place?

Think about when you arm falls asleep. You can't feel with it, but you know when its resting on something and when you are holding it up.

Under anesthetics, which dull the nerve endings, we don't feel pain, but we can still feel pressure and pulling. How or why is that?

You'd think, I would think anyway, that there were be some form of relative spatial awareness to act as stimuli and to generate memory with.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511852 - 08/08/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Fear of what? If you never saw light before, you can't be afraid of dark


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511864 - 08/08/05 10:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i think that's proprioception, the way you can feel where your body is

i imagine a person could get a picture of their environment like that- being about to feel where their body is, and the limits of where their body can be

i wonder, would this person feel hunger, sex drive?

being raised without the "world" everyone is raised in- the person would be more like an animal in terms of how we interacted with them i think

and feeling emotions like an animal

i imagine this person would have ideas of 'other people' through the limits in proprioception- 'other people' would be like the shifting limits of my movement;

and perhaps feelings like loneliness and love could evolve, if this person could understand the 'other'


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511940 - 08/08/05 10:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

what if brain is separated from the body , yet lives somehow...

a brain born without any nevers going out of it, therefore no stimuli, no nothing, sense of body, balance, gravity, nothing exept potential for memory.

would he have consciosuness? and what would fill it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Something to Ponder [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4511983 - 08/08/05 10:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Old, I didn't say a fear of the dark. I would imagine it to be, if it were to be experienced more of a fear of the unknown type fear, perhaps mixed with confusion maybe even frustration.

Good questions wondering if hunger or sexual feelings would be experienced. Hunger would have to be I would think. Do we have touch nerves in our stomach?

I feel like I need to know about how the nervous system works and where it functions not being tied to the 5 senses nerves. That would tell us a lot more.

Interesting you then delved into how the person would be more animistic. Helen Keller who was deaf and blind was very animal like in her early years.

I want to look up that word you used, proprioception. I'm interested in that for other reasons. Thanks.

I should mention why I am interested in this pondering. Who knows where it can take me into a new view of prehuman evolution. The other is, if I can best imagine what it would be like not to have my 5 physical senses I can better know how to appreciate and use them to serve me in the physical.


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