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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4346170 -

First of all, imagine you saw Orville and Wilbur's aircraft flying over your head. You had not heard of their research and attempts. All you saw was some technology that was beyond all known human technology at the time. Using your logic, it would be reasonable to assume that it was extraterrestrial.

If something out of star trek hovered above your head, buzzed you then disappeared, what would you do?

I would say "What the hell was that?". I wouldn't say "THAT WAS AN ALIEN!!! OMGZ!!!". Sure, it's exciting to believe that it's an alien, but that assumption is not based on any actual evidence, and no "Well, I can't think of anything it could be other than an alien" is not evidence, that's called a lack of creativity.

But not everybody is like that. The majority are credible good people with no reason to make up such stories of close encounters.

Obviously, no, you don't understand what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this:

Reasonable, honest people, with the best intentions, and no reason to lie or make things up, still make huge factual errors. Even though they believe whole heartedly that they remember the events correctly, their minds make errors.

This is not an issue of honesty or good intentions. The brain is not perfect, it makes mistakes. Read the link I supplied to you before. The issue of witness reliability that I'm talking about it not one regarding honesty. It is regarding the fact that sometimes memories are flawed. Sometimes we remember things differently than how they actually occurred. We do not realize that our minds have made mistakes, it feels exactly like we're remembering things correctly. This is not something that affects just a few gullible, crazy people, it affects EVERYONE to varying degrees.

Do you understand now?


I don't care much about blips in the sky, they are to far away to be accurately identified. Theres hundreds of accounts from profesionals seeing the craft CLOSE UP!

Then why not a single picture? Digital cameras are cheap now, everyone has them. Cell phones come with them inside, for chrissakes. If these crafts are flying around all over the place, why can't anyone get a single clear picture? Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4346547 -

Phluck said:
First of all, imagine you saw Orville and Wilbur's aircraft flying over your head. You had not heard of their research and attempts. All you saw was some technology that was beyond all known human technology at the time. Using your logic, it would be reasonable to assume that it was extraterrestrial.


Then considering the way they have behaved around our commercial aircraft and fighter jets, considering the fact that many credible people have seen the occupants of the craft, considering how long man has been visited for, considering the fact that it would be naive to think that an advanced alien race would not of suppased our stupid limitation theories, considering the chances of us being the only life in our vast universe (multi-verse even). Everything points to the likely hood that these things are extra-terrestrial. There is no evidence that they are anything else. Unless I suppose its possible that they are all weather balloons. Maybe it was a weather ballon that abducted Barney and Betty Hill or Travis Walton?

No it wouldn't be reasonable.  The craft would appear in trend with the current technology.  It was constructed of wood, behaved like a bird and contained two excited human occupants.  People must of realised that birds can glide.  Some birds are huge.  They would probably think that some people were flying in a wooden bird.  I wouldn't expect anyone who was told would believe the story though despite it being true!  I think many people still believed that objects heavier than air could not fly? :confused:

If you're suggesting that the craft are military then please explain why there are a huge number of reports by military personel.  Also, the military are unlikely to fly in commercial airspace and start zipping around or pestering people?

Quote:
is not evidence, that's called a lack of creativity.



What would be a creative answer?  Please give an example.

Anyhow theres no creativity in my logic.  It is most likely that the craft are alien.  Studying them unbiasedly still suggests that they are!

Quote:
Sometimes we remember things differently than how they actually occurred. We do not realize that our minds have made mistakes, it feels exactly like we're remembering things correctly. This is not something that affects just a few gullible, crazy people, it affects EVERYONE to varying degrees.

Do you understand now?



It appears you do not understand.  I know, as I said before.  I already explained to you, exactly what you have just stated!  I think this proves that I understand the concept, no?  Cheers for telling me yet again.

I do factor this into my thinking.

I just don't think it varies as much as you do then.  When somebody sees something that close, I believe some of them.  They certainly see something and it certainly inspired them to tell people, this you accept.  I'm just sugesting the most likely answer for this.

Quote:
Then why not a single picture? Digital cameras are cheap now, everyone has them. Cell phones come with them inside, for chrissakes. If these crafts are flying around all over the place, why can't anyone get a single clear picture? Does that not seem a little suspicious to you?


I can point you to tons of camera phone pics but lets face it, they are shit grainy digital (easily tampered with) photos.  Absolutely useless as evidence, you said it yourself!

I would expect the alien knows exactly what the camera is, I mean you could be pointing a weapon at the craft otherwise!  Weapons have failed on the craft as well.  There is a very well documented case of Mig opening fire on a craft.  The weapons systems were some how tampered with by the craft. :cool: :crazy2:


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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4346808 -

Then considering the way they have behaved around our commercial aircraft and fighter jets,

What about their behaviour is evidence that they are extra-terrestrial? Following them and zipping around? How do we know what extraterrestrials would act like? Without knowing anything about extraterrestrials, how can we say that a certain kind of behaviour is extraterrestrial?

considering the fact that many credible people have seen the occupants of the craft,

Like I've said before, even credible, intelligent, honest people are likely to make errors and be succeptible to suggestion.

considering how long man has been visited for,

How does a length of time provide evidence regarding their origin? This makes no sense at all.

considering the fact that it would be naive to think that an advanced alien race would not of suppased our stupid limitation theories,

Which stupid limitation theories are those, and why would it be naive? Is it not naive to believe that you would know more about physics than a physicist?

considering the chances of us being the only life in our vast universe (multi-verse even).

Like I said, evidence towards the existance of extra terrestrial life is not evidence that they are visiting us.

Everything points to the likely hood that these things are extra-terrestrial.

Not so much.

What would be a creative answer? Please give an example.

Well, how about a secret race of highly evolved people living in an underground base in the antarctic? Or maybe North Korea has a secret, highly advanced science program with flying spy crafts that are beyond anything we've seen before. Or maybe there's a bizarre virus that infects your brain and makes you believe you're seeing strange flying objects. Or maybe there's a secret society of prankster scientists that has existed for generations, and is dedicated to fooling the world into believing in aliens.

I could go on. Aliens are only one possible explanation.


I can point you to tons of camera phone pics but lets face it, they are shit grainy digital (easily tampered with) photos. Absolutely useless as evidence, you said it yourself!

I would expect the alien knows exactly what the camera is, I mean you could be pointing a weapon at the craft otherwise! Weapons have failed on the craft as well. There is a very well documented case of Mig opening fire on a craft. The weapons systems were some how tampered with by the craft.

Pretty convenient!


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4346853 -

>>>Well, how about a secret race of highly evolved people living in an underground base in the antarctic? Or maybe North Korea has a secret, highly advanced science program with flying spy crafts that are beyond anything we've seen before. Or maybe there's a bizarre virus that infects your brain and makes you believe you're seeing strange flying objects. Or maybe there's a secret society of prankster scientists that has existed for generations, and is dedicated to fooling the world into believing in aliens.

I could go on. Aliens are only one possible explanation.



So you agree, nothing can be believed 100%. You are more similar to me than you imagine.

I've considered this point too.

Its basically a sherlock holmes idea "If theres a simple explaination its probably correct"! Out of the many possibilites you thought of I still believe E.T to be the most LIKELY answer!!!

As we discussed earlier, theres no true evidence of anything. All I'm doing is weighing up likely hoods in an attempt to explain my experiences. Instead of going whack and saying its 'us coming back from the future' or any other more obscure theories I'm basing it on what science already knows about our universe. The planets! The likelyhood of aliens being out there. The chances of us being the most advanced race in the universe (highly unlikely). Consider we are capable of spaceflight, already, ourselves!

You just have to weigh it up and go with what seems to be right.


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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4346874 -

Out of the many possibilites you thought of I still believe E.T to be the most LIKELY answer!!!

Why is it the most likely? I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that North Korea exists and has a motivation to spy on us, but I certainly can't do that for UFOs, which already gives the North Korea explanation a head start.

Any explanation that requires you to involve things that may not exist at all is not the simplest explanation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4346904 -

But you can't prove without a shadow of doubt how N.Korea (lol) was flying these super advanced craft during WW2 when we had not long invented the airplane.

There is a ton of evidence, see Foo Fighters.

>>>Any explanation that requires you to involve things that may not exist at all is not the simplest explanation.

Your explainations involve MANY things which do not exist!

Science states that its highly HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that we are alone in our universe!


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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4347085 -

But you can't prove without a shadow of doubt how N.Korea (lol) was flying these super advanced craft during WW2 when we had not long invented the airplane.

You can't prove that the descriptions of the foo fighters perfectly match what they actually looked like. Many were described as flaming balls, which could have been lots of things. The Germans were testing jets and rockets, which especially to someone who had never seen such a fast craft before, could easily look like an extremely fast, shiny sphere.

Your explainations involve MANY things which do not exist!

No, they require many things that there's no way to validate. Just like yours.

Science states that its highly HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that we are alone in our universe!

Well, logic states that, but that's not the point. There's a difference between other life in the universe, and aliens visiting us. We can't make any assumptions about how aliens fly, what they'd look like, etc...

Take my example about the secret prankster society, for example. I can prove to you that groups at least somewhat like that DEFINITELY DO exist. With the existance of aliens, we can only prove that they ALMOST DEFINITELY exist.

See, here's a group that makes complex crop circles:
http://www.circlemakers.org/

Now, we have proof that the group exists, which shows that there are people out there interested in going to great lengths to create the illusion of aliens. This doesn't prove that the entire alien phenomenon is based on pranksters, but it does show that SOME of the other UFO evidence out there could have been hoaxed.

So, we can demonstrate that aliens probably exist, but unlike the hoaxsters, we don't have any solid, indisputable examples.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4348208 -

I believe in aliens, I believe in other life "out there". There are literally billions of galaxies, with planets of all shapes and sizes, if earth was created even once, even on an extreme offchance, chances are there's another place that can hold intelligent life among the billions of galaxies. But think of what you're saying. A life form with the technology of teleportation and lightspeed is obviously very advanced. So advanced that they already have unlocked the mysteries of microbiology, DNA, chemistry, mathematics, quantum physics, etc. A society that has the power to teleport and travel at the speed of light obviously knows almost everything there is to know, and has explored the universe to it's very depths.

What makes you think that a race of intensely technologically advanced beings would send out a craft to come here, to earth, to study humans and their tissues and their world when they OBVIOUSLY know everything about everything, including the makeup of humans and any other living unit in the universe! A species this superior, with so much knowledge, would NOT waste their time here, looking at things they've known for hundreds of years very indepth. If they've harnessed the power of an entire galaxy, we are nothing to them, we're not unexplored territory, we're old news and simple beings that don't need further explinations on anything because they already know almost everything there is to know!

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Hawkeye2]
    #4348237 -

I'm certainly not discounting the possiblity of life on other worlds either. It's entirely likely that there is life on other worlds. I just don't think that a species capable of inter-galactic travel would play games such as those commonly attributed to aliens by some...

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4348733 -

Right, which is what I just said, just in alot more words =-p

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Hawkeye2]
    #4349512 -

What makes you think that a race of intensely technologically advanced beings would send out a craft to come here, to earth, to study humans and their tissues and their world when they OBVIOUSLY know everything about everything, including the makeup of humans and any other living unit in the universe! A species this superior, with so much knowledge, would NOT waste their time here, looking at things they've known for hundreds of years very indepth. If they've harnessed the power of an entire galaxy, we are nothing to them, we're not unexplored territory, we're old news and simple beings that don't need further explinations on anything because they already know almost everything there is to know!

I don't understand...why wouldn't they be interested in us? Isn't our curiosity the same thing that has driven us to research new technology as has given us the drive to catalogue all the life possible on the planet?

Any planet with life on it has obviously been isolated from us for billions of years, and any life on it would have split off the genetic chain somewhere way back, meaning it would be completely different from anything we have ever seen (and of course, we'd be different from anything it saw).

Any life form with enough curiosity to build space craft will be curious enough to visit us.

However, assuming that another life would evolve directly into a form that is anything like ours is pretty arrogant. Why do people think that any planet with life on it will eventually end up with something humanlike on it?

Out of all the possible directions life has to evolve in, wouldn't it be a really, really weird coincidence if the first species we bumped into not only shared our curiosity, but looked kind of like us too?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Shroomism]
    #4349610 -

I'll just take your word for it, before actually looking through this mountain of reading. By the way, I know a brazilian girl who was at a stadium soccer game, in which the whole stadium saw a ufo cruize by.

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4350196 -

>>>We can't make any assumptions about how aliens fly, what they'd look like, etc...

Well,
I think we can reasonably assume that if aliens are probable (which they are) then we are unlikely to be the most advanced alien race (consider the age of the universe).

Considering that we are ourselves almost capable of long haul space travel. Then I consider it equally as probable that they are visiting Earth.

The old 'why would they line' doesn't cut it for me. Of course they would check us out, we may become a threat to them! We may have something they need or use, they mayu be able to learn about the complexity of life in the universe as a whole.

This is why aliens arn't that likely to be hostile. If they are advanced enough to get here, then wouldn't be likely to need to be aggresive.


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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4350228 -

>>>Out of all the possible directions life has to evolve in, wouldn't it be a really, really weird coincidence if the first species we bumped into not only shared our curiosity, but looked kind of like us too?

Not really.

The scientific evidence suggests that earth was seeded by micro-organsisms found on asteroids. The universe seems to be reasonably consistant in its conditions for life (no advanced organisms known to of adapted to extreme conditions of space).

Also theres the posability that they would simply want to appear to be similar to us, so we wern't so frightened of their true form?


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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4350670 -

Well, I think we can reasonably assume that if aliens are probable (which they are) then we are unlikely to be the most advanced alien race (consider the age of the universe).

Um, okay, obviously if aliens were visiting us, then they would have more advanced space travel capabilities than us.

What I'm saying is, progress isn't a straight line. You can measure how advanced a species is on a linear scale. There are millions of ways and directions for us to progress, many of which we can't possibly imagine. Humans may be the most advanced toolmakers, but there are animals that are far more advanced at chemoflauge, reproduction, etc... and those are only examples of things that we're already familiar with.

This is why aliens arn't that likely to be hostile. If they are advanced enough to get here, then wouldn't be likely to need to be aggresive.

The idea that being advanced means being peaceful is entirely based on human utopian dreams, not on any kind of reality.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Ego Death]
    #4350688 -

The scientific evidence suggests that earth was seeded by micro-organsisms found on asteroids.

I don't think you've done your research. That's a theory that people are exploring, but there isn't exactly a lot of evidence to back it up.

The universe seems to be reasonably consistant in its conditions for life (no advanced organisms known to of adapted to extreme conditions of space).

Uh, we don't even have a single example of an extra-terrestrial life form, how the hell are we supposed to know what they're adapted for?

And if what you're trying to say is that since space doesn't change much no matter where in the universe you are (which I have a feeling you're just assuming, and didn't actually look up), that life must be similar throughout the universe. Life is quite different in different climates all over the planet earth. The longer an ecosystem is isolated from the others, the more unique the life there is.

Therefore, it would be quite likely that a whole other planet would be far more unique than anything on earth.

Even if we did evolve from the same microbes, that would mean that we split off from them prior to such distinctions as plants and animals... meaning that they might not be plants or animals, but some other kind of life.

Also theres the posability that they would simply want to appear to be similar to us, so we wern't so frightened of their true form?

Yes, everything is just like in the movies.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4351524 -

:whatever:

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Phluck]
    #4355672 -

Phluck said:
What makes you think that a race of intensely technologically advanced beings would send out a craft to come here, to earth, to study humans and their tissues and their world when they OBVIOUSLY know everything about everything, including the makeup of humans and any other living unit in the universe! A species this superior, with so much knowledge, would NOT waste their time here, looking at things they've known for hundreds of years very indepth. If they've harnessed the power of an entire galaxy, we are nothing to them, we're not unexplored territory, we're old news and simple beings that don't need further explinations on anything because they already know almost everything there is to know!

I don't understand...why wouldn't they be interested in us? Isn't our curiosity the same thing that has driven us to research new technology as has given us the drive to catalogue all the life possible on the planet?



Why wouldn't they be interested in us? Because we're nothing to explore! In a race that has existed for millions of years, THERE'S NOT MUCH MORE TO DISCOVER! They've supposedly visiting earth for how many years? How long do you think it takes for beings capable of teleportation to gather all of the information there is to know on earth? Probably not long....



Any planet with life on it has obviously been isolated from us for billions of years, and any life on it would have split off the genetic chain somewhere way back, meaning it would be completely different from anything we have ever seen (and of course, we'd be different from anything it saw).

Any life form with enough curiosity to build space craft will be curious enough to visit us.
Quote:
However, assuming that another life would evolve directly into a form that is anything like ours is pretty arrogant. Why do people think that any planet with life on it will eventually end up with something humanlike on it?

Out of all the possible directions life has to evolve in, wouldn't it be a really, really weird coincidence if the first species we bumped into not only shared our curiosity, but looked kind of like us too?


I never said they'd be anything like us. I just said they'd already know every single possibility of any combination of DNA and molecules in existence.

Edited by Hawkeye2 (06/30/05 04:21 PM)

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: Hawkeye2]
    #4355911 -

Hawkeye2 said:
Right, which is what I just said, just in alot more words =-p



Yes, I know. Just addin' my 2 pennies...

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Re: Major UFO breakthrough in Brazil [Re: YidakiMan]
    #4360346 -

YidakiMan said:
I'd rather not see Aliens conclusively proven for a couple of centuries.


How many people, of the Judeo-Christian faith, would be dying to blow up the entire world when their little lie is exposed?

The Church managed to survive the flat-earth debacle, they will not survive proven second genesis.



lie? I haven't heard them talking about aliens, or lieng about it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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