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Offlinetomk
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Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum
    #4237458 - 05/30/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I see a small problem with this forum.  Someone posted a suicide thing, again, and no one seems to be responding right.  :mad:

I don't know how big a deal this is.  But, it could be a big deal, and if it is, then we have well meaning people who could be causing harm.  It could be harmless, but a potential suicide driven to post here, who is met with "Here is my advice" or "It will pass" (which is the exact wrong thing to say to a suicidal person), might feel as if one of their last avenues for someone to listen to them is used up, contributing to their decision to commit suicide.  I'm not sure what effect well meaning bad advice has on suicides.  Someone should talk to a suicide prevention person and find out how harmful well meaning responses that contradict what experts say are.  That way, if they are harmful, they can be moderated away. 

Obviously, the rules for that forum should be amended so as to give mods free reign on suicide threads.  People should not be posting advice for less painful suicides, and shit like that.

Look, the shroomery is going to attract a lot of people at high risk for suicides.  People with certain mental disorders and certain personality types are at a higher risk of suicide.  These same populations are also more likely to use drugs.  I'm not saying every shroomerite is a potential suicide, but I am saying that people who are drawn to this website are, as a group, much more likely to be suicidal then a control.  So, a policy that deals with potential suicides in the right way could be helpful for some of our members.

I would think this is the sort of thing that would give the shroomery legitamacy and respectablity.  What say you guys?


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237481 - 05/30/05 07:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Giving the mods "Free reign" on suicide threads is implying that these mods have better judgement than anyone else posting. While this may be true in some cases, it's purely subjective.

I disagree that people should not be able to post "less painful methods." If a person is going to kill themselves, there is nothing wrong with suggesting a painless and less visibly-shocking (to relatives/loved ones) method.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not supporting suicide, and I think that it is highly unfortunate that anyone should decide to take their own life. However, nobody, not a single person, has the right to tell them otherwise. They can certainly express if they wish them not to, by giving personal support and/or offering help.

It is a touchy subject, but censorship will not help or hinder the person make their decision.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237485 - 05/30/05 07:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Someone should talk to a suicide prevention person and find out how harmful well meaning responses that contradict what experts say are. That way, if they are harmful, they can be moderated away.




Is that person you?
As you say later in your post, a lot of people attracted here are depressed/suicidal; I think that people that have lived through it are use benefitial as those professionals in their input. Two sides of the same coin.

Quote:

tomk said:
People should not be posting advice for less painful suicides, and shit like that.




The information is out there, there are plenty of sites that publish that kind of information with no discussion or voice of reason.
websites
and even amazon.com

Quote:

tomk said:
So, a policy that deals with potential suicides in the right way could be helpful for some of our members.




It's a lot harder to create a policy like this than you might think, and finding people that are willing to moderate and take the heat is even harder.

I agree with you but you're talking explicitly about at gray area here.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237494 - 05/30/05 07:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

if someone is taking the time to post about killing themselves, rather than just up and doing it right then, it would be my guess that they are looking for advice/comments.....none of us here are trained professionals, we give what we can. would it be better if they made a post about suicide and got no replies at all?


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: blink]
    #4237518 - 05/30/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No, it's explicitly not me. I think you would need to have a lot of training in suicide prevention work to qualify, and I don't have that. But, adding someone with a lot of training in suicide prevention work as a mod, and giving that person a lot of leeway in moderating responses, would be a good idea.

I agree, it's a grey area, but right now, no one is thinking about it. People should be thinking about it. I can think of 4 or 5 suicidal people who have posted here in the last month or two. I think it's pretty well established what works and what doesn't to help suicidal people. By getting someone who knows this shit well, they would be in a much better position to navigate the grey areas then us. Maybe you are right, and hearing from former suicidal people helps, maybe it doesn't. An expert would know better then either of us. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of research on this, and I think an expert opinion is in order. But, either way, the rules should reflect what the expert consensus is on this issue.

Letting just anyone post uninformed suicide advise is exactly as problematic as letting anyone post uninformed dosage advice on the drug forums. There are similar bodies of facts available for what actually works, and similar harms (up to and including death in both cases) for people stating their opinions when their opinions contradict what the evidence says. What I am suggesting in way of a change is merely to bring the suicide issue in line with the drug dose issue as far as what sort of comments are allowed in the spirit of harm reduction. Yes, this involves making the idiots who are posting shut up, the same way we moderate away bad drug advice. But those people shouldn't be talking in the first place, even if they mean well.

Does anyone have any expertise in this field?


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4237529 - 05/30/05 07:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"if someone is taking the time to post about killing themselves, rather than just up and doing it right then, it would be my guess that they are looking for advice/comments.....none of us here are trained professionals, we give what we can. would it be better if they made a post about suicide and got no replies at all?"

You are wrong. Actually, that person is looking for someone to listen to them, that they can express themselves too. Not for someone to offer them comments or witty advice on killing yourself three ways at once to make sure. Not for people to say they love the person (this can be harmful if the suicidal person feels the people saying it only loves part of them, for example, a suicidal closeted gay man would not be helped by hearing this from friends who thought he was straight, but it can also be helpful if the person just doesnt' feel love). They only want someone to listen to them. But, people don't realize that and instead post comments and advice. This is exactly the wrong thing to do. Yes, it seems to go against common sense. But I'm not saying my opinion, this is what the suicide prevention experts will tell you.

It would be better if everyone responding knew enough to encourage the person to talk more without imposing anything (including advise and comments) on that person.

I suggested this now, because this would be a good change to make before the shroomery promotion gets underway. A place with these resources for vunerable members is a lot more respectable then a place where uninformed people cause harm with well meaning remarks.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237552 - 05/30/05 07:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

At the support board I go to for this type of thing they deal with suicidal people on a regular basis and have a few ground rules which must be abided by:

1. No suicide notes.

2. No sharing of methods

This seems to work out well for that board, but then again, it's a different place. The people there in general are more fragile and want a "padded walls" envirnment to feel safe in.

*
*

OR (and I am not necessarily in favor of this) all threads threatening suicide could be locked and the user directed to a site or number to call that is better prepared to deal with crisis situations.

*
*

It really depends on the approach the Shroomery wants to take. Probably the safest for the site from a PR standpoint would be to lock the threads threatening suicide and refer user to a place where they'd be able to get support from people who are better trained to deal with it.

The problem I have with this is that I don't think suicidal people should feel censored when it comes to sharing with others that they have those feelings. That's a big no no, in my opinion. In this community it's important that we stand by one another. Sometimes the best thing for a suicidal person to do is TALK about their feelings.

But maybe it's best to lay some ground rules for that forum when it comes to things like suicide, since admittedly, I've had the same concerns that you've had, Tomk.

However I don't believe there is a single "right way" to respond to a suicidal person. There isn't a script to follow with this sort of thing. It's difficult subject matter. You want to help but you're not sure what to say...so what do you do? Say nothing? Or try and reach out to that person? I will always reach out, even if what I say may not be the most eloquent or even if it sounds cliche. From being on the support board that I go to, I know that replies matter to people in that state of mind, even if what they are saying sounds cliche or meaningless. Just the act of communication can be a lifesavor.

I do feel tweakish when I read the posts that are suggesting suicide methods, but a clear protocol doesn't seem to be established for crisis situations in forum. I believe that since the Shroomery is growing larger every day, it might be in the sites best interest to develop a solid policy on how to best handle suicidal crisis from members. Do we limit free speech in that one forum on what people can post to others who are suffering from suicidal thoughts? If so, what are those limits?

The point is, the Shroomery is a public message board that is unprepared to deal with suicidal crises, even if many of us here on the site have suffered suicidal feelings at times. We can't abandon members in their time of need, but at the same time we are not responsible for how they react to replies to a post they made.

I'll bring this up with the other mods and see what they think too.

*me*


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237560 - 05/30/05 07:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ok, im wrong.....wouldnt be the first time.


i actually dont post in those threads for that exact reason....never really sure how what i say might sit with the person in question. so, are we supposed to try to weasle information out of them, or just sit there and let them reply to their own posts? how exactly would you reply to the latest thread on the topic....im assuming that was what made you start this thread.


Quote:

Locus said:
Well, I think this is it. I think it's about that time. So as soon as I can get myself a gun I will do it. If I knew another more surefire way Id do it right now but I dont and i dont want any attempts. It's been a very long fucking time and I've lost everything that ever mattered to me at all, everything. And I've waited it out for so long and things have only gotten much worse. It's not worth it anymore and it hasn't been for a very long time.





what would you say to that?


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: MOTH]
    #4237570 - 05/30/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I just wanted to respond to this bit for now, Elle:

"However I don't believe there is a single "right way" to respond to a suicidal person. There isn't a script to follow with this sort of thing."

This is true. However, there is a right way to approach all suicidal people. The approach is flexible depending on what that person says. Like this.

Them: "I am suicidal"
You: "Talk more."
If: Them = "I ran out of antidepressant, and can't stand life anymore" go to response 1
If: Them = "My girlfriend broke up with me." go to response 2
If other, then go to response 3.

There are general scripts like this. A qualified person at suicide prevention will be able to adhere to the scripts fluidly enough to not give well meaning but bad advice, and will also be able to deviate to address the individuals concerns.

But, we aren't at the stage where the debate is,

do we have a script or not,

we are at the stage where the debate is

do we continue to let uninformed (but well meaning) people offer potentially harmful advice to suicidal shroomerites or moderate that advice in light of the best suicide prevention materials and expertise.

Even if there are problems with this change, it can't be worse then what we are doing now, can it?


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4237592 - 05/30/05 07:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


what would you say to that?




All I did say was "tell us more about your situation."

But, like I said, I'm not an expert at this stuff. I'm just aware enough of it to know that the people who have been responding have been by and large not the same type of responses that experts would give, and so are not condusive to the shroomerite in question getting the best help.

If I thought about it more, I would probably ask him to clarify all the vague language first, so that we can understand what he is thinking better.

The idea is that talking through the problem clearly is the only thing that is going to resolve it in the persons head.

You guys do know that this level of suicide is treated the same as heart attacks and such at hospitals right? Like a person that eager to kill themselves is considered the highest most serious health risk. The only reason people don't treat it that way is because of stigma associated with suicide. (Note things like the "A real man would kill themselves the first time around." shit going on in that post, perpetuate that stigma and cause lots of death).


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237618 - 05/30/05 08:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
the people who have been responding have been by and large not the same type of responses that experts would give, and so are not condusive to the shroomerite in question getting the best help.





well, of coarse....none of them are experts, so the responces would be different. maybe we should all become suicide experts? or just not say anything at all to these threads? or lock them when they start? what is really the best scenario here?

maybe just start linking them to a site that deals with this sort of thing on a daily basis? but to tell you the truth, if i were in that situation (and have been a few times to a lesser extreme) and i made a post, and i just got a link to talk to someone else because they were experts.....i dunno, i may feel even more worthless when my own "friends" wouldnt talk to me.


--------------------
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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237620 - 05/30/05 08:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Some people in that post wrote pretty good stuff.  Not world class, but the sort of things that well meaning people say to their friends that actually help them.

But then there was a lot of crap (some of it well meaning) like this:

"He is prolly dead. Wouldn't that be surreal."

"There's been more than a few times I felt like ending it all. Sometimes things just overwhelm us, and it seems like the only option. But you know, things have always gotten better. Hang in there and things will get better. It sounds cliche, I know, but I've always found this to be true...."

"Indeed, shooting yourself in the head is overrated. It's a good method to assure you're going to die, but most other methods, if done properly and if you make sure you have a few hours alone, can be done just as effectively and with much less mess and pain."

"If you are going to do it, do it like the indians used to do when they realized it was time to die. I just heard about this and I think its absolutely the best way.

Go into a forest and sit down. Don't eat and slowly starve to death. This will give you time to think and realize whats happening. A gun to the head is too rash."

"Don't be so fucking selfish, at least go out and do the world some good before you leave, assissinate Bush and then blow your brains out, come on man, go out with a bang not a wimper. Do something that fucking matters.

And happy birthday, will there be another?"

Well, that shit just shouldn't be tolerated.  Someones life is at stake.  :mad:

In particular, it's dangerous to encourage a suicidal person to think about their situation more.  In many cases, the thought process of a suicidal person is deranged.  In many other cases, the person assigns such a high value to escaping their pain that suicide is logical from that persons assumptions, and thinking about it more will only further their resolve.


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4237626 - 05/30/05 08:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wrestler_az said:
Quote:

tomk said:
the people who have been responding have been by and large not the same type of responses that experts would give, and so are not condusive to the shroomerite in question getting the best help.




well, of coarse....none of them are experts, so the responces would be different. maybe we should all become suicide experts? or just not say anything at all to these threads? or lock them when they start? what is really the best scenario here?

maybe just start linking them to a site that deals with this sort of thing on a daily basis? but to tell you the truth, if i were in that situation (and have been a few times to a lesser extreme) and i made a post, and i just got a link to talk to someone else because they were experts.....i dunno, i may feel even more worthless when my own "friends" wouldnt talk to me.




I think eduacting a few shroomerites to deal with this sort of thing, who could then teach the rest, would do good. It would also mean people gain these skills for dealing with real life situations.

When you are that suicidal, it often seems as if the people you discuss it with are talking at you, not to you. Especially when they try and give you advice or comments. Just listen. Let the suicidal person talk.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237631 - 05/30/05 08:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ya, talking about methods and what not to someone suicidal is just sick.....those posts should have been deleted in my opinion...but at the same time, this is a very large drug orriented website.....theres gonna be assholes making those kinds of posts. theres really no way around that.


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4237639 - 05/30/05 08:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wrestler_az said:
ya, talking about methods and what not to someone suicidal is just sick.....those posts should have been deleted in my opinion...but at the same time, this is a very large drug orriented website.....theres gonna be assholes making those kinds of posts. theres really no way around that.




Except to make forum-specific guidelines which must be followed.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: MOTH]
    #4237647 - 05/30/05 08:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i believe those are already in place....see how well they work?


--------------------
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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237653 - 05/30/05 08:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

gdman and egghead were the only people who's responses were condusive to getting the guy to talk more. These two dudes know what they are doing, or have good intuition for these circumstances.

There were other people who had good things to say. But, in this situation, it isn't relevant to say something good, it needs to be helpful. Some of the good stuff just isn't going to help a suicidal person.

I'm glad that this is up for discussion now.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237668 - 05/30/05 08:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Welcome to our Physical & Mental Health forum! If you've found your way to this forum, you may have a problem you need help dealing with. You might also be here because you want to offer support and advice to others. Or it could be that you're looking for ways of improving the quality of your life through some physical means. Either way, we're glad you came. Before posting, we ask that you review this forum's simple guidelines.

1. This forum is intended for serious discussion only, and off-topic or abusive posts will not be tolerated. When offering advice, please make an effort to be as helpful and supportive as possible. Remember, you're talking to real people with real problems and you need to take them seriously.

2. The Shroomery is concerned with your well-being, but we can't be responsible for it. Most of our members have never received any training in crisis intervention or psychiatric counseling, and all advice should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. If you have a serious problem you should directly seek professional help. This forum is not a substitute for a doctor or counselor.

3. In an emergency there are many 24-hour, toll-free hotlines available to assist you. Several of these are listed below. Additional resources are available from the U.S. Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Administration.

National Foundation for Depressive Illness
Provides information about the symptoms of depressive illness, and follow up information and medical referrals for those who request them.
800-248-4344

National Mental Health Association
The National Mental Health Association addresses all aspects of mental health and mental illness.
800-969-6642

National Suicide Hotline
The National Suicide Hotline connects you to a certified crisis center near your calling location.
800-784-2433

SAMHSA's Center for Substance Abuse Treatment
The Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Administration can get you in touch with a drug abuse treatment program near you.
800-662-4357

Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network
RAINN carries out programs to prevent sexual assault, help victims and ensure that rapists are brought to justice.
800-656-4673

National Domestic Violence Hotline
The National Domestic Violence Hotline can help you find out about domestic violence shelters and programs in your area.
800-537-2238

CDC National STD/AIDS Hotline
The Center for Disease Control offers support for those infected with a sexually transmitted disease, including HIV/AIDS.
AIDS: 800-342-2437
STDs: 800-227-8922



Thanks for doing your part to make this forum a pleasant and useful resource for all!






stickied in the forum.....take a good look at #2.....


--------------------
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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4237686 - 05/30/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, that is irrelevant. The people who are suicidal and come here don't care about that. People who need help are going to post here asking for it. We should do what we can to help them, and not let the threads degenerate into stuff thats harmful for the suicide. It's compatible with not being responsible for the end result, and #2 above, to try and help people.


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Re: Dealing with Suicide posting in the Physical and Mental health forum [Re: tomk]
    #4237692 - 05/30/05 08:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I think people should be able to talk openly with members.

What if he went to kill himself by swallowing a whole bottle of advil and ended up with permanent brain damage and still wanting to kill himself? I think if somebody tells their method of suicide, others should be able to comment on the method that they're talking about, as that's extremely important to their suicide.

Help them indeed, but don't make them feel like we're some superior assholes telling him to go on and telling him it's ok. We should talk to him like equals and friends, with open discussion of what's on his mind, and if he's serious about suicide how he's going to do it.

There are hotlines for what you're talking about, after all, so if you want that why not just lock the threads and send him the hotline number? They want more than just a hotline-type response obviously if they're opening themselves up to a forum of responses.


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* Physical and Mental Well-Being fireworks_godS 279 1 02/04/09 06:17 AM
by wrestler_az
* Re: Health Facts. Aphex 815 4 05/14/98 03:03 PM
by Anonymous
* New Forum: Medical aid and health
( 1 2 all )
Glitterbaby 2,787 20 10/25/02 01:09 PM
by Peaceful_Nomad
* new forum request
( 1 2 3 4 all )
KingOftheThing 4,090 71 10/07/04 02:46 PM
by geokills
* maybe we need a whining forum.....
( 1 2 all )
SneezingPenis
2,228 23 10/10/06 02:59 AM
by Anno
* Shroomery Forum Changes YthanA 1,506 9 04/01/07 03:46 AM
by MrNatural
* How about an Outdoor Sub-forum?
( 1 2 3 all )
kadakuda 3,738 45 01/13/05 09:42 PM
by ToTheSummit

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