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InvisibleSwami
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Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness?
    #4130050 - 05/03/05 11:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nope. This is not a joke nor a junk thread. I am actually going somewhere deep on this if people stay with me.

A mouse trap may be simple and have limited ability, however; it does "outwit" a highly evolved creature with its sense /response capability. I contend that therefore; it has some degree of awareness.

A response such as "Hey, it is not alive," says nothing and just layers one assumption upon another.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130067 - 05/03/05 11:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well..I'm not really sure. Does a seesaw have awareness? Does a scale have awareness? All it does is set off a spring if there is too much weight.

I say that no, it doesn't, because it isn't aware if it's a mouse, or a stick, a roach, a rock, a foot, etc. It isn't aware of whatever it's killling. I could set that trap off with a piece of cheese that I dropped just as easily as a mouse could set it off.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130085 - 05/03/05 11:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Obviously the ability to react does not equate to awareness, but I am of the opinion that all the universe has consciousness. So yes, I'd say a mousetrap does have awareness, even if it is only an awareness of that awareness.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4130241 - 05/04/05 12:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

All it does is set off a spring if there is too much weight.

I note how you use the word "all".

And how is that sensing of weight any different than any other creature's/objects sensing ability? Are chemicals required to be considered aware?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4130260 - 05/04/05 12:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

a mouse is not a highly evolved creature in the sense that it does not use tools, therefore it cannot recognize a tool being used by a human. the person who sets the trap has the awareness.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: fresh313]
    #4130291 - 05/04/05 12:17 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

a mouse is not a highly evolved creature in the sense that it does not use tools
So some birds are more highly evolved than meeces?

the person who sets the trap has the awareness.
Because...? A human is also a stimuli/response contraption; albeit a bit more complex.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130296 - 05/04/05 12:17 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The trap does not "Sense" the weight being applied to it. A physical object comes in contact with it at a specific point. It is designed by a human who is aware of the laws of physics and the theories of engineering. The trap functions as planned, by the human.

Let me pose this question to you then: would it be possible to "fool" a mouse trap? Could something apply the amount of force, in the direction that would set it off, without setting it off?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130360 - 05/04/05 12:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It was designed by a human that provided the awareness.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4130365 - 05/04/05 12:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

A home security system can sense motion and heat; therefore it must be aware.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Icelander]
    #4130372 - 05/04/05 12:30 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

But the metal in that form may also be aware. Who knows?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130403 - 05/04/05 12:36 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Alright, suppose a mouse trap is "aware" (aware= undefined as of yet.)

So?

(No really, I'm interested as to where this is going  :grin: )


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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130451 - 05/04/05 12:47 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

A mouse trap is a device of a single, conditioned reflex.


And so with the mind, which is a bundle of conditioned reflexes.

Is this what you're saying? :smile:




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4130462 - 05/04/05 12:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Awareness in others is determined by their ability to sense and interact with the world. Take that away and we cannot be sure if they are aware. (Coma, unconsciousness; etc.)

I contend that our bilogical response mechanisms are only different in complexity from the simple weight response of the mouse trap.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130526 - 05/04/05 01:06 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Awareness in others is determined by their ability to sense and interact with the world. Take that away and we cannot be sure if they are aware. (Coma, unconsciousness; etc.)

I contend that our bilogical response mechanisms are only different in complexity from the simple weight response of the mouse trap.




Maybe I'm dumb. Well ok, I'm dumb, but how does your contention answer your initial question? :confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130548 - 05/04/05 01:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That sounds alot like determinism...

While it's true that human behavior has some predictablility, it is far less predictable then a mouse trap. The difference is: the mechanics of a mouse trap can be determined at a macroscopic level, whereas the dynamics of neurotransmission occurs on at least a microscopic level. I think it's a stretch to compare human behavior and a mouse trap, but it's an interesting idea.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130561 - 05/04/05 01:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I would say no; it does not have awareness. It does not become aware that a mouse is on it. The mousetrap is, however, sensitive.

How about this...

A mouse rustles a dry leaf, which a hawk hears. The hawk hones in on its prey and goes in for the kill.

Did the mouse and the hawk communicate?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: soulmotion]
    #4130577 - 05/04/05 01:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Many plants and animals will attack or react based on simple mechanical triggers. I just don't see any difference except in refinement and sensitivity.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130614 - 05/04/05 01:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I would say that any vertebrate animal that attacks or reacts based on a simple mechanical trigger is still aware that it is consuming a prey. Plants that do this, though, are no better than the mousetrap... Sensitive, but not aware.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: Swami]
    #4130626 - 05/04/05 01:25 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Many plants and animals will attack or react based on simple mechanical triggers. I just don't see any difference except in refinement and sensitivity.




If you're talking specifically about biological reflexes then yeah, they are probably more predictable and therefore more comparable to a mouse-trap than other human behaviors. I'm not sure the comparison would hold for other human behaviors, however.


Edited by soulmotion (05/04/05 01:43 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does a Mouse Trap have Awareness? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #4130751 - 05/04/05 01:49 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Sensitive, but not aware.

Conjecture. We have no idea what any other creature is experiencing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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