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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis...
    #1881545 - 09/04/03 05:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hi,
I wuz thinking today about conditioned reflex.
You know how certain smells n songs can dramatically
affect your mood ? at the same time, certain responses
are very strongly linked to logic and rationality - e.g.
people arn't afraid of scary holograms etc cause they
know it's "an illusion". However, even tho I may know
that certain smells, sounds, places etc trigger certain
emotional responses in me, the "knowing" isn't enough
to be able to dispell/alter the emotional response.
However, I know that NLP addresses some of these issues
and has been very effective in fixing phobias etc.
So I'm wondering how does one alter conditioned emotional
responses ? the simple "knowing" doesn't seem to be enuff...
On a related note, Depression seems to be an association of
pain/suffering with everything (i.e. complete dis-association
with pleasure/happiness and association with pain/suffering),
so it would seem that the way to battle Depression is by altering the
conditioned response - rather than simply "knowing" that
it's an illusion...
Thoughts ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflinePedM
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1881697 - 09/04/03 05:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You're touching on a branch of psychology called Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. It's relatively new, and has shown some remarkable success.

http://www.townendm.freeserve.co.uk/index.html/WhatisCbt.htm


--------------------


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1881715 - 09/04/03 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ummm...what the heck is NLP?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: Ped]
    #1881721 - 09/04/03 06:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yup, I'm actually seeing a CBT shrink myself, but what she addresses
is very lame to be honest (perhaps she's just not very knowledgable, not sure). I'd like to know how people can reassociate, I mean I know
it's possible because of NLP etc. I rememeber when I wuz a pup, I ate
some food (traditional meal) n I was sick so I threw up - after that I
couldn't see that food (which is a delicacy at home) for years without
feelin nausious. I had associated the feeling with the food. But I believe that we can reassociate, n I'm wonderin how - cause just knowing that something is an association isn't enuff. My CBT shrink
just focuses on "showing me the error of my ways" i.e. uncovering
"faulty" mind patterns - which to be quite honest I was aware of
well before I ever went to see her (she even gave me some silly
illustrations of "Catastrophizing", "Over Generalizing", "Mind Reading" etc - "Cognitive Distortions"... it was something I'd
give to a 2 year old, very dissapointing  :rolleyes: ).
I'm also interesting in how people become Masochistic... I mean
people actually enjoy pain ? by definition then, it's no longer
pain, since pain is something undesirable (by definition). But
I'm curious how people manage to associate a sensation like being
cut/burnt etc as something desirable (as opposed to the "normal"
reaction of avoiding such sensations at all cost). 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: Jellric]
    #1881776 - 09/04/03 06:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Ummm...what the heck is NLP? 



Neuro Linguistic Programming...
A.K.A Intellectual Masturbation :lol:
Just kiddin, it's actually very "scientific"
and the techniques are quite effective, and
it makes sense...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1881950 - 09/04/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I peform my own mental conditioning without paying someone that doesn't truly know my mind to try poking in the dark at it..

Some detemination and spirit is required, I believe.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1882044 - 09/04/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I peform my own mental conditioning without paying someone that doesn't truly know my mind to try poking in the dark at it..

Some detemination and spirit is required, I believe.
Peace. 



I used to do the same, but sometimes help is required,
no man is an island...
we all need help sometimes...
and since we are all One the help is Not "External".
We are simply part of the same process of the Universe
and as such have much to learn/benefit from others.
Just as there are cells in our body, alive n part of
our larger process, which mutually sustain each other
and help each other, so to are we.
To think that others have nothing to offer is a trick
of the ego...
I don't pay someone to poke/probe my mind, I pay them
to assist me in trying to better understand my own
process when I'm unable to on my own.
Friends are acceptable, Gurus are ok, but Therapists
are a sign of weakness ?
detemination and spirit is always required and always present.
No one gives up on life on account of being lazy, although
it might appear as such to onlookers.
Peace fireworks :smile: I do enjoy/appreciate your posts - n I'm
not just saying that to alleviate our different views :smile:
I have a lot to learn from you :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1884034 - 09/05/03 06:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I guess it just depends on how self-reliant you are when you first start.. a lot of people are a little in over their head and do need the help of some professionals, and that's great.

Just that when you get to a point where you can stand up on your own and do the system analysis for yourself, than by all means do it..

Other people are the best way to show you what needs to be changed in your operating software.. A good thing to do when you are ready is to expose yourself to a lot of different situations around different people and see how it goes, how you react and what thoughts you have.. I don't remember who said this on here, but it went something like "A monk will seclude himself for years to rid himself of anger and live in peace, and then will descend from the mountain and shout angrily at the guy that accidently bumps into him.."

Anyways, seclusion never really helped anybody. :grin:

I guess I said something that I shouldn't have really said, a lot of psychologists have a good understanding of the ways that a lof of different minds work, and it is good for them to start people off who are not really conscious of everything that is going on in their mind and how they can reprogram it.. I guess I never thought of those people before I said what I said. I apologize. :grin:

Once again, I recommend Handbook to Higher Consciousness by Alan Keyes.. it is very effective, I find, if one actually tries out what is in the book on themselves instead of just reading it and so on..

Glad to be of service, by the way, I also have a lot to learn from you and everyone else on here and out in the world.. We really are all in this together.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1885204 - 09/05/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks man :smile:
Excellent post  :thumbup:
In my case, as a result of years of mindfulness meditation,
I'm completely aware of my thoughts (in fact I was quite
confused that most people arn't - I still cannot relate
to that state, since I've been meditatin since I was a pup,
so it's the only way I experience the world n myself).
My problem, I've noticed, is that I've associated everything
with pain/unhappiness/suffering and disassociated from all
pleasure/joy. It's a conditioned reflex kinda like listening
to a song which completely changes your mood and puts u
in a different mind space. I'm not sure how such reflexes
can be changed since the "knowing" is insufficient. Time
is a great healer, but I'm fairly certain there are more
direct ways. I actually moved my furniture around in my
apartment as an experiment and was surprised at how it
affected my mood...I've associated my apartment and it's
arangement with every depressive horrible day I've had for
the past 8 months. I need some serious reprogrammin  :tongue: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1885928 - 09/05/03 06:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
I actually moved my furniture around in my
apartment as an experiment and was surprised at how it
affected my mood...I've associated my apartment and it's
arangement with every depressive horrible day I've had for
the past 8 months. I need some serious reprogrammin  :tongue: 




Ahh, feng shui is an EXCELLENT way to go about changing yourself. Things are moved and added with the specific intention of improving or changing something in your own life, and it really helps organize your head.. Feng shui was the first step I really took towards who I am today.

I'd recommend checking out "Move Your Stuff, Change Your Life" by some chick.. I'll search for it quick... ahh  The link to Amazon..

It doesn't get into any of the ancient Chinese reasoning really, all the hard set rules and whatnot, but does effectively give you a way to rearrange your life. Not only that, but your house or room will be pretty well laid out, as well..

You say that you have associated your apartment with every horrible day you have had... definitely a good idea. It is WELL worth you checking out this book and giving it a shot. What is there to lose? I'll even offer a testimonial from me "I used it, and it worked for me". :grin:

Have fun, man, release yourself from all the negative..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1886128 - 09/05/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Of course, it sounds hipper and more mystical to do Feng Shui rather than mere redecorating or rearranging.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1886445 - 09/05/03 08:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps you'll consider doing dental work or surgery on yourself as well. After all, it's your body and you know it best with all its subtle structures and attending Latin names for them. I mean, YOUR mind is so different from all other minds, and YOUR experiences have nothing in common with the majority of human life experiences, so who else could possibly know it? YOU don't have a subconscious or an unconscious which requires that someone else to mirror them for you, because there is nothing that you are not conscious of, right? Please. You simply haven't understood the role of a hypnotherapist yet.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1887865 - 09/06/03 06:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I don't understand the role of a hypnotherapist, and I haven't needed to as of yet. I consider myself emotionally and mentally fit, and I have always been capable as of yet of fixing any problems I have come up with.. I prefer to stand on my own.

It isn't more hip or mystical, that isn't what it is about. When you move things around and give them intentions, it sort of settles a part of your mind as well.. you don't have to worry about certain things because you have given that task to an object. It is more about rearranging your mind than simply rearranging your stuff..

Myself, I could care less about what it is called, I just know that some of these techniques gone about while moving your stuff around with purpose have some positive effects on your mental state, and they do bring about change in your life.. I don't honestly believe that putting a plant in one corner of your room is going to bring you romance or whatever, that isn't what it is all about. It is just a good way to think about your life and prompt you to make changes..
Peace.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1888165 - 09/06/03 11:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

>I consider myself emotionally and mentally fit
So how long does it take u to do the no-mind Zazen Marathon ? :lol:
There is only 1 correct answer to this Koan...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: lucid]
    #1888810 - 09/06/03 05:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Can't say that I know what that is.. I just know how my mind works and what I can do to eliminate old programming and to keep it operating smoothly.

I wouldn't consider dental or normal surgery on myself, either, because I don't claim to know anything about any of that. However, I have been priveleged to the way my mind works since day one, so I do claim master status in that category.. Whether or not I know how others minds work or the similarities between them and what techniques others have used navigate around in other people's heads..

I am not belittling the roles of such doctors, as I said above somewhere, because they are obviously needed by a lot of people.. just not me.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: Changing Conditioned Reflexes, NLP, Depression, Hypnosis... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1889624 - 09/06/03 11:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Perhaps you'll consider doing dental work or surgery on yourself as well. After all, it's your body and you know it best with all its subtle structures and attending Latin names for them. I mean, YOUR mind is so different from all other minds, and YOUR experiences have nothing in common with the majority of human life experiences, so who else could possibly know it? YOU don't have a subconscious or an unconscious which requires that someone else to mirror them for you, because there is nothing that you are not conscious of, right? Please. You simply haven't understood the role of a hypnotherapist yet. 



Markos, so you're a hypnotherapist, what r your thoughts on my
original post ? care to elaborate ?
Thanks :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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