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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3968534 -

She is not brain dead, she is in a Persistent Vegetative State. There is a slight difference, not least importantly that brain death is recognize as death in mostly all legal systems, while PVS is not.

People with PVS may be like brain dead people in that they do not respond to external stimuli, however some PVS patients will respond to pain, while technically someone brain dead will not. I am not a doctor so I do not know all the differences between PVS and brain death, but legally it is what has created this whole problem with Terry Schiavo.

If she was brain dead then she probably wouldn't have been kept alive nearly this long, as people who are brain dead will die after drug and ventilator support is removed by going into cardiac arrest. I believe Terry Schiavo can breathe on her own, and the main requirement she needs to survive is nourishment from a feeding tube.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dead , it says "It is important to distinguish between brain death and states that mimic brain death (eg. barbiturate intoxication, alcohol intoxication, sedative overdose, hypothermia, hypoglycemia, coma or chronic vegetative states)." You could also see the article on Persistent Vegetative States for more information.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Ravus]
    #3968566 -

So is she reacting to the pain of being unplugged?


Is her brain reacting to it?

Are they checking for that?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3968624 -

In brain death, all electrical activity in the brain has ceased. You are legally dead if this happens. In PVS, the activity in the neocortex has ceased, along with all functions associated, among them language, learning, memory, and complex thought. They are still alive, they are just a vegetable.

Is her brain reacting currently? I do not know, to us humans she has really lost her consciousness, but perhaps the lower part of the brains are still functioning and reacting. It seems doubtful she knows the pain of being unplugged, because she has lost complex thought and consciousness according to the physicians who have diagnosed her with PVS. The response to pain in PVS patients seems to be more along the lines in that if you poke them in the pupil with a needle they may react slightly, not that they know if a feeding tube has been removed or not because they have no thought or memory to know what is happening. Even the reaction to pain can be deceiving, because people think that means they must be like normal humans in this, but it is just reflexive for the most part, due to the functioning of the lower parts of the brain to sustain the body.

A few physicians think that patients should be considered dead when functioning in the neocortical region ceases, so Terry Schiavo would be considered as dead as someone with complete brain death, but so far the legal system and the mainstream medical community have not taken this position yet. Seems a bit too logical, eh?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3968755 -

She's not brain dead. She is in a "persistent vegetative state."

For a comprehensive review that cuts through the incredible heat and shines a bright light on this case go to http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#timeline

When I say comprehensive I mean it. It's quite long and includes a great many long court orders and guardian reports. Of particular interest is the initial order of Judge Greer and the Wolfson report to Gov. Bush, both of which find the Schindlers to be decent people without a shred of credibility. Everytime the courts rule against them they ratchet up their lies. I don't mean to sound harsh in judging them. I would probably do the same if I thought as they do. But they are nonetheless quite full of shit and several courts have said so. At the end there is a question and answer section which is very good but you should still read at least Greer's initial order and Wolfson.

It will much improve the level of debate here to have facts.


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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Ravus]
    #3969583 -

The proteins in her brain were damaged during her FORTY MINUTES without oxygen. They are now operating in ways that prevent or inhibit the tertiary protein structure formation. Her brain has large "spots" that are made of this defunct brain tissue. She isn't going to "heal" from this. PVS isn't the causal condition, it's the effect. Her body is alive, but her mind isn't.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: SoopaX]
    #3969698 -

Forty minutes? I've heard varying reports, from 10 to 15 minutes, some state 14 minutes, but never forty. If her brain went 40 minutes without oxygen I doubt she would have ever recovered in any form, even to become a vegetable.

Do you have any sources for that 40 minute claim?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Ravus]
    #3969781 -

Apparently even people who are concious and communicative don't feel any pain when feeding tubes are withdrawn, doctors have said that such patients have told them they thought they would feel hungry and thirsty, but they didn't. Eventually they fall asleep, fall into a coma and then pass away while they are unconcious. Either way euthanasia is a better option.


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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Ravus]
    #3970383 -

"fifteen to twenty"... it what I'm finding.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3975426 -

She's still alive. The doctors are giving her morphine for the pain, but no water for the agonizing thirst :sad:

A judge ruled she could not receive Holy Communion on Easter Sunday.  :sad: :sad: :sad:


I'm so disappointed with the Bush brothers. Either one of them could have ordered military doctors to to take custody of Terri and give her food and water. The courts would have been powerless to stop them because the judiciary commands no forces.

I'm so disappointed in the legislatures. They could have passed a constitutional amendment to save her life; they didn't even try.

And I am appalled by the Supreme Court who refused to hear the case. I hope all nine justices become the targets of wrongful death suits, along with the whole sorry lot of lower judges who ruled to deny this woman life and religious liberty on the hearsay testimony of her husband.

For the true pro-lifers this has always been about saving Terri's life, not about political advantage. This case ,however, is hammering home something which I have known for a while. There is no pro-life party in the US. The People elect republicans because these people claim to defend life, but where the rubber meats the road they side with death.

I'm so sick of the Republican party claiming to be pro-life while waging unjust wars, executing prisoners, advocating torture, and finally, refusing to save the life of a helpless disabled woman. The republicans don't really want the law to change in favor of life, they prefer things to remain as they are because it ensures a large block of votes for them each election cycle.  They are playing pro-life people for fools.

I've often suspected this about the republicans. The same base principles which make me pro-life in the case of abortion also make me pro-life in the case of the death penalty, but this is not the case with most republican politicians. My pro-life foundations also make me respect and cherish all forms of life, but the "pro-life" republicans have little or no appreciation for the environment.
Republicans have proven themselves unworthy of the pro-life vote. I believe the time has come for a Prolife Green Party to emerge.

St. Austine tells us that God permits evil so that a greater good may come about. Perhaps Terri's tragic death will bring about a beautiful change; perhaps a three party system is right around the corner.

Happy Easter. :smile:

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3975441 -

The People elect republicans because these people claim to defend life

I know quite a few people who vote Republican because of their supposed fiscal conservation.

Either one of them could have ordered military doctors to to take custody of Terri and give her food and water.

I find it appalling that the government would try to intervene in her own wishes on treatment of her body is such a situation.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3976344 -

Quote:
I'm so disappointed with the Bush brothers. Either one of them could have ordered military doctors to to take custody of Terri and give her food and water.


No they couldn't have, because Terri can not eat or drink. She is a vegetable.

Quote:
I'm so disappointed in the legislatures. They could have passed a constitutional amendment to save her life; they didn't even try.


Taking rights away from the family and the states is the way to go about making change, good point. :rolleyes:

Quote:
And I am appalled by the Supreme Court who refused to hear the case.


They actually follow the Constitution. This is not a federal matter, in truth I do not even think it's a state matter, but even if it was, nowhere in the Constitution does it say the federal government should deal with cases like this. And because it also says that all rights not designated to the federal government go to the states (or the people thereof), it would not only be unlawful, it would violate the most sacred document to the American government simply to save a vegetable who has no hope of recovery.

You have what seems to be twisted priorities, you have not make such a ruckus about events where the government has caused many deaths, yet a family makes a decision about what to do with a person in a Persistent Vegetative State with no hope of recovery and you became this upset? Why not give all this time to decisions our government makes that will kill thousands of fully conscious and alive people?

Anyway, Happy Easter. :smile:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Ravus]
    #3977439 -

Quote:
You have what seems to be twisted priorities



No sir, you have twisted priorities. I can think of no greater priority for the state or the nation than defending the lives of its vulnerable citizens from those who would kill them.
If there had been a document stating her intentions, then no-one would be "making a ruckus." The courts have allowed a man to kill his disabled wife by forbidding anyone to give her water, and the executives of both Florida and the US have refused to exercise their constitutionally given powers to protect her. It's a sad day for the State of Florida, and a sad day for the USA.


Be assured this ruckus is not over. All those who were arrested trying to bring Terri some water will appeal their trespassing cases to the highest courts, and there will likely be wrongful death suits filed against a long list of judges. I agree that many vote republican for fiscal issues, but there are many who vote single issue pro-life. Without that voting block the republicans would not be in power. Pro-life voters will remember Terri Schiavo next election; hopefully we will have a truly pro-life candidate to vote for.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3977571 -

I can think of no greater priority for the state or the nation than defending the lives of its vulnerable citizens from those who would kill them.

Should tobacconists and alcohol proprietors also be imprisoned?

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3977796 -

Hopefully the American people will have had it with all of this conservative bullshit by the next election. Pro-lifers are a dying breed, more and more people are recognizing the divinity of each persons life, and the right to live it as they choose.


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Re: Executive Order. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3979472 -

You're not making any sense Dark_Star.


Quote:
more and more people are recognizing the divinity of each persons life, and the right to live it as they choose.



This is exactly what I'm advocating.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3979664 -

shroomydan said:
You're not making any sense Dark_Star.


Quote:
more and more people are recognizing the divinity of each persons life, and the right to live it as they choose.



This is exactly what I'm advocating.


If you believe in a person's right to live, how can you not believe in a person's right to die? It's their body and their life. No one else should have any control over that.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: unbeliever]
    #3979772 -

The right to die question is not at issue.

Once again, if there existed a document stating that Terri Schiavo wished to be deprived of water and food in the event she became too disabled to swallow, then there would be no conflict here. There is no such document, there is only the hearsay testimony of her husband.

This is a right to kill case.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3984506 -

shroomydan said:
The right to die question is not at issue.

Once again, if there existed a document stating that Terri Schiavo wished to be deprived of water and food in the event she became too disabled to swallow, then there would be no conflict here. There is no such document, there is only the hearsay testimony of her husband.

This is a right to kill case.


I have a few points to make:

1) There were no living wills back when she entered into this permanent vegetative state.

2) The husband's actions, I believe and the courts seem to agree, have demonstrated a lack of malice in regards to the removal of extraordinary life saving measures (which is what a feeding tube is). He spent many years and hundreds of thousands of dollars (most of which was the award settlement for a related civil suit) taking care of his wife, trying everything possible, getting countless doctors and specialists to examine her. Only after many years of this and a consistant diagnosis (and prognosis) from the doctors did he decide it was time to accept the reality that his wife's state was permanent.

He has been offered literally *millions* of dollars to turn over her care to her parents. He has declined and there is not a single piece of evidence that would give any motive why he would do this other than to honor her own wishes.

3) The decision has long been out of his hands. He turned it over to the courts years ago and has simply been waiting for them to make a decision. Her parents have responded by dragging his name through the mud and grasping at straws to try and prolong it. They turned it into a national media circus and have done a great wrong against their daughter in my opinion.

4) Murder is an unlawful act. Exercising guardianship to make a reasonable and legal medical decision on the behalf of a legally incompetent spouse is not murder.

Please do not conflate religious moral beliefs with the law. Down that road lies slavery, domestic abuse and all sorts of other biblically condoned nonsense.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: unbeliever]
    #3984825 -

I dont give a shit what anyone says, starving a person is bullshit. I can't believe they could do something like this especially since they don't allow euthanasia. If they don't believe her life is worth sustaining then shoot her in the fucking head! bam done. None of this pussy footing political bullshit. This is what makes me disguisted about this country, people get caught up in stupid fucking technicalities instead of just doing and saying what they mean. By taking the tube out they know she is going to die through starvation. I dont care what anyone says its starvation and killing someone. They are commiting an act knowing full well that it will cease the life of another.

Also if you say it's a waste of resources, what do you say about people getting their bodies cryogenically frozen? Wouldn't that also be a waste of such valuable resources. This makes me sick because it is such bullshit, america wastes so much shit as it is, but to just sustain one life with probably not that much food, they cant be spared. I mean fuck I'm sure there are plenty of people in this country willing to send their scrap food that they are going to just throw out anyways to make some food cocktail mixture of shit to pump into her. If you say its a waste of resources please also tell me that you have never, ever thrown out food.

I find it proposterous that this is even in question, she may be in a coma state and whatnot but her heart is still beating and her entire body isn't dead. You never know maybe in another 15 years she will still be alive and by that time there will be enough advancements in medical technology such that they can fix her brain. Either way I just think this is ridiculous, either shoot her in the head and be straight forward or don't starve a helpless woman to death.

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Re: Executive Order. [Re: relativexistance]
    #3984871 -

relativexistance said:
I dont give a shit what anyone says, starving a person is bullshit.




Glad to see you're open-minded about this topic.

relativexistance said:
I can't believe they could do something like this especially since they don't allow euthanasia. If they don't believe her life is worth sustaining then shoot her in the fucking head! bam done. None of this pussy footing political bullshit. This is what makes me disguisted about this country, people get caught up in stupid fucking technicalities instead of just doing and saying what they mean. By taking the tube out they know she is going to die through starvation. I dont care what anyone says its starvation and killing someone. They are commiting an act knowing full well that it will cease the life of another.

Also if you say it's a waste of resources, what do you say about people getting their bodies cryogenically frozen? Wouldn't that also be a waste of such valuable resources. This makes me sick because it is such bullshit, america wastes so much shit as it is, but to just sustain one life with probably not that much food, they cant be spared. I mean fuck I'm sure there are plenty of people in this country willing to send their scrap food that they are going to just throw out anyways to make some food cocktail mixture of shit to pump into her. If you say its a waste of resources please also tell me that you have never, ever thrown out food.

I find it proposterous that this is even in question, she may be in a coma state and whatnot but her heart is still beating and her entire body isn't dead. You never know maybe in another 15 years she will still be alive and by that time there will be enough advancements in medical technology such that they can fix her brain. Either way I just think this is ridiculous, either shoot her in the head and be straight forward or don't starve a helpless woman to death.


She's not actually being starved to death. She will die of dehydration first. Which is a pretty painless way to die, as long as the mouth is kept moist to prevent painful drying and cracking. In fact, most terminal cancer patients choose this method to die.

I wouldn't expect much in the department of "fixing" her brain, not with the anti-stem cell research lobby thumping their bibles (effectively) at the republicans in charge. Even still it is unlikely that even within 15 years we could regrow the large portion of her brain matter which has shriveled and died. Even assuming that, how would you imprint her actual personality on to it? I don't think you fully appreciate the condition she's in. This isn't a walt disney film.

The rest of your post comes off as misguided invective and non-sequitors. As such it will be summarily ignored. :smile:


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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