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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3861611 -

Quote:
But my tax dollars!!! Yeah yeah. Guess what? It costs far more to execute an individual than to house them and feed them. With the trial after trial, appeal after appeal, the 10+ years that person sits on death row.. you've chewed up more money than what it would've cost to keep them there for 30.


This stat is as misleading as I thought. It would imply that it is cheaper to keep someone for 30 years as it would to execute someone. When in reality it is the appeal after appeal and legal costs and NOT the mere fact of keeping them on death row. This sounds like a judicial problem to me.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3861655 -

I made the point of it not being a judicial problem, b/c when the appeal process goes away it increases the chances of innocent being imprisoned, killed, or otherwise punished. The protection of the innocent in this country creates a lot of hurdles, but i can't find anything more noble.


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The People's Voice, Welcoming Liberals and Conservatives Alike

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3861685 -

Quote:
I made the point of it not being a judicial problem, b/c when the appeal process goes away it increases the chances of innocent being imprisoned, killed, or otherwise punished. The protection of the innocent in this country creates a lot of hurdles, but i can't find anything more noble.


I wouldn't call them hurdles as much as I would call them road blocks. It is in fact a judicial problem, all one needs to do is sit in a court for one day and as soon as someone is found guilty it is automatically assumed that they will appeal without any preknown reasons. Appeals aren't meant to prolong the process and that's just what they are used for.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3861692 -

I'll agree the appeal process is abused, but i'd rather it be around and be abused, than not be around at all, especially in cases revolving around capital punishment as a consequence to a guilty verdict.


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The People's Voice, Welcoming Liberals and Conservatives Alike

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3861829 -

I have no problem with there being appeals, however the appeals should be because of something that was done wrong in the original case. Maybe if they set up a certain amount of appeals per capital punisment, the process would be efficient.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3864210 -

One name springs to my mind. Lee Boyd Malvo. Give him to me. I'll know what to do with him.
We maybe need to redefine juvenile. 17 is too old.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3864256 -

zappaisgod said:
17 is too old.


Well that's only your opinion. My opinion is that 17 is still a minor. If the judicial system is allowed to make exceptions to treat minors as adults, why not do it all over the place? 17 year olds would be considered adults, they could vote, they could buy tobacco, go to war, they could have sex (of course they could do that anyways), they could have all the rights and priviledges of being an adult. The system cannot work that way: letting minors be tried in court as an adult, but treated as a minor everywhere else.

Although I do agree that he did commit a "bad" crime (as if any crime is good?)


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3864793 -

In my state they are considered responsible enough to have a drivers license at 16. I think that is actually a good choice of age.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3864846 -

Adult mind... Adult time. Child mind, child time. Simple, don't over complicate it.

Only issue is the determinant of what is and isn't a child's frame of mind versus that of an adults... but don't believe we need to dwelve into that considering we aren't the ones making the decisions.

Age, ultimately is and should be irrelevant, hold a person accountable on their own capacity... age is meaningless... I've met 40 year old's that are fucks, I've met 20 year old's that act like they resemble the nature of a 40 year old. Hold them accountable to the degree they are mentally accountable.


(note: just used to demonstrate what a stupid concept it is to denote one's merit on the basis of age, as age is irrelevant)

Another such example is alcohol at the age of 21.... give me a fuckin' break, age determines nothing, why you still see stupid as 21 year olds getting shit faced and killing themselves, whereas I've personally, been and met, those who are younger and more responsible.

Since we all seem to think that age is an important factor: (which imo it is meaningless, why I'm providing examples and scenarios) we should instead judge an individual's actions on the basis of their intentions, which further relies on the merit of an individual and their capacity to form and pass judgement with respect to consequence. Judge a person by their merit not their age.

Unless someone can provide why universal age constants, seem to be a valid form of determining an individuals behavior, or can explain why this is a bad idea. I'm all ears.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864893 -

And so, since you find chronological age to be unreliable, what is your alternative method for assessing when someone should be able to drive, drink, smoke, vote, get laid, and be executed for heinous crimes committed?


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3864962 -

To be provided on the context of their mentality... get the APA, and various other social institutions in their, to form a system who's basis lies in the ability to assess an individual, not a number. I'm not a psychologist or anything to that nature, just proposing an idea...

Example:
1) Assess an individual's belief system, (all forms of belief and the foundation for believing them)
2) Does the individual have a solid foundation and the ability to have foresight of consequence?
3) Is the individual this way due to environmental influences such that they have horribly damaged their perceptual filters, and their actions are the only way they see as credible (some serial killers only know pain due to their upbringing)
4) Was the action we are judging the individual upon premeditated, was it's bases done out of malicious considerations?

think you get the idea... A bit generalized I know, but really, it has a solid foundation for passing judgement on the basis of the individual and not their age. You can quantify mechanics, you can quantify science, but you can't quantify an individual on the basis of their age.

As for the generalized answer to the question: When they are fit and aware of the consequences and have the ability to do such actions, then and only then. You wouldn't give everyone a fuckin' gun in the world just because they are XX years old now would ya'? Why would you give them something of equal if not a greater potential, that has the capacity to cause damage, who's basis relies solely on the 'mystical omnipresent' constant of age?


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/06/05 11:15 PM)

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3882361 -

IMO if you are old enough to beat your family to death with a baseball bat, you are old enough to face the consequences.

right now the only power the liberals have left is judges.

that's why the courts have become a law making branch of the government.

but watch out lefties, bush will be replacing alot of those judges with conservative judges. legislation should make up laws not the courts.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3884118 -

I feel the state has no business executing the people. I do feel that the people should hold the right to execute members of the state. I speak somewhat jokingly. But can you imagine the effect of say, we give all gov't officials life terms and every year we decide if they should be executed. Can you imagine the gigantic shifts in policy and politcal ethics. It may not be a viable solution but its interesting to think about.

To go a little further on punishment. Why do we have prisons at all? It's apparent they don't work. Prisons are being built at insane rates. Of course many of the inmates are victims of the bullshit drug war. But if you remove them from the equation, there still alot of violent repeat offenders. Prisons do not work, they just don't. So what do we do every year... spend more damn money on prisons! This just doesn't make any sense to me. We are heading towards a cliff and instead of changing course, we decide we should run faster? There needs to be a major shift in how we think of crime and those who commit it. Criminals are created, not born. We need to try to remedy those causes that create criminals. Because by the time the crime is commited its too late. You've already dropped the ball.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Benwa]
    #3884137 -

Yeah, but it's so much easier to focus on all the hidden "terrorists" instead of focusing on the threat we pose to ourselves.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3884309 -

yes Prisons suck. and half are filled with non violent offenders, and that sucks.

but i do not want the kid who beat his parents to death living next door to me.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Benwa]
    #3884310 -

This has nothing to do with the drug war, it has to do with murder.

I don't know about you but i remember when i was 15 and i committed all kinds of crimes knowing that I wouldn't be punished because I was under 18. What happened? I got caught and I wasn't punished, just as I thought. Sometimes older people don't remember learning right from wrong by the time they were 6 years old.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Catalysis]
    #3968461 -

Better yet, make sure the parents look after their misbehaving offspring. There are too many people who can not teach their children right from wrong.

Reminder folks: People are dumb in general, that's the biggest problem.


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"Trance isn't just about the beat, it's about the movement of the beat, the sound, the life behind the music you are listening to. Listen to it the wrong way and you'll miss everything."

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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