Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Hunting and Identification
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5442721 -

bluemeanie, I partially agree and partially disagree with you.

The book will be useful as a definitive survey (at least at the point in time when it's published) of the genus. The descriptions and other data in it will be of great value to anybody who wants to seriously study the genus.

On the other hand, you are correct that the classifications will be changing once molecular studies are done. This will be happening all over. The initial studies seem to indicate that Cortinarius will be split into lots of pieces. Coprinus already has bee split into multiple genera (almost none of the mushrooms we call Coprinus are still in the genus). The species Guzman lists will undoubtedly be split and joined into something different. This is already being done elsewhere. Galerina autumnalis, G. venenata and G. marginata (and a couple other species) are the same species (G. marginata has priority, so it's the official correct name).



We are at an interesting time historically for biology. The taxonomy world will be turned on its head.


The professionals I've spoken with have advised that we should ignore all of that. Basically, learn to recognize the species in your area. If you can't be sure what the current official name is, go ahead and make up a common name for your own use. If an expert comes by and can tell you what the official name is, you can then translate your common name to the official name and anything you'll have done with those species is perfectly valid.

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Quankus]
    #5443927 -

Quankus said:
I hope the updated psilocybe list contains info on the new bay area species aka cyanofriscosa.


Guzman has seen a collection that I've sent him - he identifies it as Psilocybe cyanescens, but I'm not so sure. I'm doing work on this group for my California monograph. I think the California "cyanofibrillosa" is a distinct species, but on the other hand, I see a range of gradation between P. cyanescens and "cyanofriscoa", which implies that they might be crossing with each other, which would make them the same biological species. (Note that interfertility between P. azurescens and P. cyanescens has also been demonstrated.)

My schedule for publishing my California monograph won't be until next year, so unless there's a delay in Guzman's finishing his world monograph, a lot of my findings won't be incorporated into that work. (Since I've done lots of in-depth study of California Psilocybe populations that Guzman isn't able to do - which would be true of anybody writing a regional monograph as opposed to a world one - the information in my monograph will not be redundant.) Its to be expected, though, that there will continue to be ongoing work on the genus and lots of name changes, even after Guzman publishes his monograph.

Peter

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5443977 -

bluemeanie said:
sorry mate but i dont agree at all - for the reasons ive stated above.
When proper DNA mapping or izozyme compatibility studies are done I doubt there will be anywhere near 200 species in the Psilocybe family - infact soon there wont even be a Psilocybe family - from what ive heard there will be a name change.
Although I have respect for Guzman's interest and his study in the early days - the majority of his delineation work based on minor microscopic differences will be proven redudant.
As for the info still being correct - well that would be according to MJ and Guzman... But opinion aint fact...


I don't know where you get the idea that microscopic features are "irrelevant". Just because those are features you wouldn't ordinarily use in field identification does not mean that micromorphological features aren't distinct characters that are indicative of species-level differences. One could just as easily accuse authors of splitting on "irrelevant" macroscopic characteristics - Psilocybe cyanescens and P. azurescens are practically identical under the microscope, but the distinct macromorphology is enough to have them be described as different species.

I think as molecular data becomes more available (which will largely be through direct sequencing of DNA regions rather than isozyme studies), the result may very well be that some species will be put into synonymy, but it may also result in some species being further split. (This has already been observed in widespread species like Russula brevipes, which shows a huge degree of diversity when looked at molecularly, to the point where its unlikely its all one species.)

When I look at the question of whether two individuals belong to the same species, I look at everything - macromorphology, micromorphology, and molecular data. I also keep in mind that with macroscopic and microscopic characters, I'm essentially delimiting a morphological species, and whether that's a real species or not is an open question. (Also, its not entirely clear that "species-level" differences in ITS, etc sequences really indicate that you're dealing with two different species.)

Since its possible to actually cultivate Psilocybe species, an area of research that really needs to be carried out is to grow mycelium from single-spore isolates (so you grow out hyphae that's monokaryotic, eg, effectively one "sex") and carry out interfertility experiments between closely related species. That would really provide answers to questions like whether Psilocybe cyanescens and P. cyanofibrillosa are just different populations or variations of the same species.

Peter

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #5449744 -

I have never said that they are irrelevant, but they are not automatically indicative of specification and to assume so after a cursory examination isnt sound.
The example here is Guzman's descriptions of ps.subaeruginosa, ps.australiana and ps.eucalypta. He declared that we had found three seperate species in Australia after only making a small number of collections.
If you find Ps.azurescens and Ps.cyanescens as practically identical i assume your working with the United States version of cyanescens rather than the european variety that lacks cystidia to begin with. That being said - if you look into the break down of the subaeruginosa group the claimed differences in cystidia shape were much smaller than those found between azurescens and cyanescens - well with the ones I have examined at least.
But these were still used ALONE to justify their description and type specimens as seperate species.
When macroscopically they are identical, when a clear and concise study of these mushrooms demonstrates that their cystidia shapes vary within collections, when two independent compatibility studies and isozyme protein studies indicate that they are all the same entity it proves that he jumped the gun.
As ive already stated - using the methods Guzman suggests - that is letting cystidia shape suggest specification Panaeolus cyanescens would have at least eight different entities. And Panaeolus cyanescens has cystidia differences that are massive when compared to the Ps.cyanescens allies.
So are we suggesting that there are eight seperate and incompatible species of Panaeolus cyanescens or are we suggesting that like the Ps.subaeruginosa scenario, it is one entity with varied and ranging cystidia shape.?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5449885 -

Blue Meanie,

psilocybe cyuanescens and Psilocybe azurescens are two distinct species form one another and are not macroscopically similar to each other except for the chestnut color of the cap and the white stem. The shape of the cap of P./ azurescens is exterememly different from the shape of the caps in P. cyanescens.

Shit, I have grown P. cubensis with wavy caps on them. That is just one of the many characteristics of the genera Psilocybe and it does mn not mean they are the same or related shroom.

Agrocybes and other families alos get a wavy cap including Galerina species.



mj

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #5452069 -

Strophariaceae said:
Quankus said:
I hope the updated psilocybe list contains info on the new bay area species aka cyanofriscosa.


Guzman has seen a collection that I've sent him - he identifies it as Psilocybe cyanescens, but I'm not so sure. I'm doing work on this group for my California monograph. I think the California "cyanofibrillosa" is a distinct species, but on the other hand, I see a range of gradation between P. cyanescens and "cyanofriscoa", which implies that they might be crossing with each other, which would make them the same biological species. (Note that interfertility between P. azurescens and P. cyanescens has also been demonstrated.)

My schedule for publishing my California monograph won't be until next year, so unless there's a delay in Guzman's finishing his world monograph, a lot of my findings won't be incorporated into that work. (Since I've done lots of in-depth study of California Psilocybe populations that Guzman isn't able to do - which would be true of anybody writing a regional monograph as opposed to a world one - the information in my monograph will not be redundant.) Its to be expected, though, that there will continue to be ongoing work on the genus and lots of name changes, even after Guzman publishes his monograph.

Peter


The tallest friscosa i have ever seen was in GGP growing right next to a cyan patch. I have a mediocre cell phone picture of it. But, usually friscosas don't get much taller than a few inches, this one's stem was 5+, which is a characteristic cyans have.
I agree the new bay area species did come from cyans/fibs but i've seen them fresh right next to each other and you can distinguish a number of differences. They are a mutation of the two, in my amatuer opinion.
keep up the good work. and post some pics maybe?


--------------------

CyanoFriscosa

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5458078 -

mate read my post - im saying the same thing - i never said they were identical - someone else said they were similar microscopically not me -
i like opinions - but prefer informed ones when it comes to arguing with my intent.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #6488386 -

'Psilocybe cyanescens and P. azurescens are practically identical under the microscope, but the distinct macromorphology is enough to have them be described as different species.'

Actually I think spore compatibility was the clincher with these two.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Genus Psilocybe: An Update for Anno and all Members [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6491741 -

Quote:
Quankus:
But, usually friscosas don't get much taller than a few inches, this one's stem was 5+, which is a characteristic cyans have.


How do you know they weren't cyanofibrillosa? The ones i found were just as tall as Cyanescens if not taller. But i don't know for sure if what i found was Cyanofibrillosa or the so called 'Friscosa', which doesn't actually have a real scientific name at this point in time.

Also, where did you get your ID info for Friscosas? The Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa thread?



--------------------
----------------
"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Hunting and Identification
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Possible psilocybe azurescens =) farmboybluez 12,067 16 09/20/17 03:08 PM
by perkysmiles
* Psilocybe azurescens pictures mjshroomer 2,635 3 02/07/04 09:41 AM
by Anno
* Psilocybe semilanceata (Liberty Caps) for New Hunters
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 ivi 140,584 63 04/29/10 11:57 AM
by German Kahuna
* A new GA Psilocybe, or maybe Ps. atlantis??(pics) Lizard King 2,233 12 10/21/01 01:42 PM
by GGreatOne234
* Another new Psilocybe Species from the Czech republic mjshroomer 1,882 5 01/26/04 03:12 AM
by Anno
* Let's Update the FAQ List of What's Found Where...
( 1 2 all )		 ToxicManM 4,416 26 10/01/03 10:16 AM
by Ude
* I found some psilocybes, but not sure which ones..
( 1 2 all )		 YouInfoIt 9,066 26 11/01/02 05:49 AM
by JovialLeprechaun
* EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic
( 1 2 3 all )		 mjshroomer 16,021 44 03/13/09 05:54 PM
by HCLivess

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: ToxicMan, karode13, inski, Alan Rockefeller, Duggstar, TimmiT, Anglerfish, Tmethyl, Lucis, Doc9151, Land Trout
6,100 topic views. 1 members, 80 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 16 queries.