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EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic
    #2260631 -

Here are the first images of this beautiful bluing potent mushroom form the Czech republic taken by its discoverer Jan Borovicka, who also recently discovered Psilocybe arcana.













mjshroomer
These shrooms are from two locations which were first found in 2001 and then again the following year int he same locations with more shrooms than the last times.

mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2261505 -

Do they possess any outstanding traits? Whats the potency level?


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"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody in the world who tries to makes us uncomfortable." HST

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Stonerware]
    #2261567 -

Some which were picked at lower altitudes were found to contain more psilocine than psilocybine. I have analysis here somewhere int he letters I reeeived.

mj

Will look tomorrow.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2261679 -

Do you have any prints?

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2262148 -

Here is a clearer image:



And here are some germinating spores on agar:



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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2262193 -

Very nice indeed, thanks for sharing :thumbup:

Anno, is that your petri dish :grin: ?


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er

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Anno]
    #2262325 -

Thank you anno. Nice growth you have there.

mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2262643 -

Lovely images. Awesome shrooms.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2265976 -

...sorry, it was a joke. i pm'ed mjshroomer with an apology


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Its cube season on the gulf coast.

Whats more natural than a man going out and collecting medicines?

I like to take the heavenly route to hell.

Edited by back2growing (01/24/04 02:03 AM)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: back2growing]
    #2266487 -

You have a real problem in that you did not read the above post.

Quote:
the first images of this beautiful bluing potent mushroom from Czecjhoslovakia taken by its discoverer Jan Borovicka, who also recently discovered P. arcana.


I never said I discovered it, however I am working with other colleagues on the taxonomy, cultivation, chemical analysis, SEM's and DNA of five new Psilocybe species we are now writing the papers on. Two are psychoactive (1 from Cambodia the other from Seattle) and three which are not psychoactive and were collected from two locations hundreds of kms apart from each other.

So go do your flaming in the OTD. It does not belong here.

mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2266871 -

I hope that guy was just jokin around.  I personaly enjoy your findings :smile: How do you distinguish a new species from one that has already been discovered?  Seems to me like they all look very very similar. 
-matt


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"If I don't see ya before the end of this one, I'll meet ya in the next one and don't be late" - Jimi Hendrix

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: forevrgrounded98]
    #2266951 -

>How do you distinguish a new species from one that has already been discovered?#
Mainly by its microscopic features, basidia, spore size and similar.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Anno]
    #2267135 -

Ditto!

mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czech republic [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2267382 -

Great pictures! Yeah, forests of central and eastern Europe can be full of suprises.  :smirk:

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Anno]
    #2267709 -

Anno said: 'Mainly by its microscopic features, basidia, spore size and similar.'
But ofcourse the modern understand of speciation demonstrates that these characteristics are by no means fixed between entities, but generally range - particularly in mushrooms.
Ofcourse, as proper isozyme protein and other tests are not readily accessable to most biologists, they have to use these characteristics as a basisi for delineating their finds as a new species.
Guzman's reliance on them in delineating a variety of new Psilocybe species will most likely be soon demonstrated to be flawed.
If any of you are keen to add species to a RNA/DNA/compatibility study being conducted by Plutues - who is actually working with Stamets (yes, he replied to the emails!) to obtain as many lecho-type and type specimens as possible.
MJ and Anno Im sure you both have access to a number of good specimens that would help in his study.


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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2268017 -

I'm already including P. moravica / arcana specimens in my DNA analysis, more would be welcome - as would more specimens of Psilocybe cyanescens - as long as information is given about locality. This is important so I can build up a picture of the population genetics of species over their geographic ranges. I'm also looking for specimens of other Psilocybe species which have not yet been sequenced (will post a list here soon).
If you can help, please get in touch. Having the support of enthusiastic amateurs as well as herbariums speeds up research 1000 X I have had a lot of help from shroomery members over the past year and it is deeply appreciated

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: pluteus]
    #2268101 -

I've been out for a while so someone please fill me in. We now have a resident mycologist who is studying the DNA of different psilos? And is looking for fresh un-sequenced material?

If so, I would love the mushrooms I have been picking for the past three years that I expect are a newly discovered active species of Psilocybe to be sequenced and compared!!!!
I have 3 active Psilocybe species total without a name or proper ID. Gaston Guzman has one of them and I regret sending it to him. Guzman is taking way too long not to mention his questionalble techniques used for Identification and classification.


DNA comparrisons will hopefully soon lead to a complete revision of how we separate and classify mushrooms. I had no idea there were people here working on this. This is great news!


Lizard King,


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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Lizard King]
    #2268126 -

LK,

While Guzm?n may seem slow to you, I must remind all of h you here at the shroomery that it takes from 6 months to three years for a published paper to b appear in p journals describing their uniquness or as a new species.

Notrhing is slow buit the publishing of the information.

Most keep it quite until the papers are in print.

And Pkluteus,

Pakitsin Shihanonth and I , along with Roy Watling and sev eral other students form both Thailand and japan, as well as a colleague in switzerland are currently conductin DNA, SEM, Cultivation, Taxonomy and Chemical analysis of several new species of mushrooms as well as a comparative analysis and DNA stutdy of P. mexicana Heim, P. samuiensis Guzman, Bandala and Allen and the newly discovered species from Angkor Wat, Xiem Riap, Kampuchea known tentively as Psilocybe angkoria Sihanonth, Allen and Watling.

This study also includes the Psilocybe violacea mushroom form Koh Samui (already Workman grew these and posted his results here and at Nans nook, plus two other non-psychoactive Psilocybe species from Thailand.

mj

And have a shroomy day

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Lizard King]
    #2268258 -

i am not quite as enthusiasic as some of you seem to be about the restructuring of the taxonomy by molecular biologists. while this will give us all insight into the corelation of species therein, it will confust things for home identification and the layman's understanding of the families/genera as a whole. most mushroom hunters are not equipt with an SEM of sequencing equiptment and this seems inevitably bount to devide the field, leaving the those people with the more practical need to understand the taxonomy holding the short straw.

i may well be wrong; but, i believe the standard for classification should still give insight into the accessable features/distinctions between the specific taxons. are we to need two systems of classification, one making useful distinctions between the species and one simply a map of the genes? maybe this is the path of progress in what must need to be two fields afterall.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2269591 -

MJ - it takes six months to get articles published in journals, but about half an hour of Guzman to examine the cystidia, spores and basidia of a specimen sent to him - and then get back to the person who sent it to him.
As for the studies - i always wonder why you inluce Ray Watling in there - no offence, but the guy's specimens of the mushroom that he helped Guzman delineate (Eucalypta) didnt actually have any of the microscopic characteristics that he and Guzman reported in their original article. He said it was a type speciment without actually even examining these - apparently deciding it was consistant because it grew on the same type of wood :smile:


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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2270104 -

Roy Watling, who is the head of th Royal Botanic gardens in Edinburgh has been doing mushroom research in Thailand for many years.

I have something else to do right now so I will get back to you on that pont
mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: canid]
    #2270481 -

Quote:
but, i believe the standard for classification should still give insight into the accessable features/distinctions between the specific taxons.


Hear, hear! All this genetic mumbo-jumbo is all good and well, and pretty darn interesting for people willing to invest enough time and capital (equipment) in it, but for the man in the street/field, it doesn't add much. I think the man in the field would be helped with an accessible and comprehensive system allowing him to at least partially identify and classify his finds without having to resort to complicated biochemical studies.
Of course, I do see the merits of deeper investigation, but let's not forget that the level of scientific knowledge of most Shroomery members simply doesn't extend that far.

Quote:
maybe this is the path of progress in what must need to be two fields afterall.


I agree whole-heartedly!

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: koraks]
    #2272677 -

Those Czech mushroom are very cool. Could you tell me some information on them? At about what altitude did you find them? What substrate were they growing on? What time of the year?

I am interested in them because of their proximity to Poland, to which I travel annualy during the late spring/summer.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2274072 -

concretefeet - I understand and even partly share your reservations about taxonomic restructuring via molecular phylogenetics. However my interests are not really taxonomic. My interests are in using molecular phylogenies to understand processes of mushroom evolution.

There are many cases, however, where molecular data has been directly useful to field taxonomists - for example in showing that subtle morphological or habitat differences between conspecific collections noted by keen-eyed observers do in fact signify species differences, or the reverse case, where collectors have reported intermediate forms between established species, which molecular work then confirms to be conspecific. It is rare for species distinguished on molecular criteria to be indistinguishable morphologically. The major problem with molecule-informed taxonomy seems to be the constant reshuffling and renaming of taxa at all levels. But surely this is just a (very long) re-organizational phase? I suppose you might argue that this phase could be reduced to a short blast, if changes were held off until the molecular people have reached a more stable framework, but you should realise that (a) most of these molecular people are first and foremost mushroom taxonomists, and so their job satistfaction partly lies in rewriting Latin mushroom taxonomies, and (b) their sources of funding require this anyway.

MJShroomer - I had read about your current projects and look forward to the papers. I'm largely concentrating on the Psilocybe cyanescens species complex, so we do not overlap. In terms of DNA mushroom phylogenies, especially those concentrating on small clades of mushrooms, I think it's crucial to start using multiple unlinked gene regions to exhaustively corroborate hypotheses of relationships - what sequence data will you be using?

Lizard King - I'd be willing to look at what you have, if it's something that might be in or closely related to the Psilocybe cyanescens group?

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #2274163 -

>What time of the year?
Late Autumn.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: Anno]
    #2282613 -

I can't imagine that astronomers would enjoy having their own discoveries rediscovered and potentially renamed so I don't expect mycologists to be any different.  This testing will just formalise things.  There is always a mild tension between MJ and BM but neither of you could ever say that you weren't good for each other :smile:

The whole confusion that could be created over home identification is perhaps a little premature.  You assume that care would not be taken in reclassification to classify things such that characteristics such as visual differentiation would not be noted.  Identification is not the only reason dna classification must exist.  It is however the only reason it shouldn't.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: pluteus]
    #2282693 -

harumph.
i can only see the benefits of the dna sequencing...these apparent incongruencies are merely phantoms... what the dna guys have given us thus far, as far as fruitbodies go, is simplification. what of craterellus fallax? merely cornucopioides in disguise. and the yellowish chanterelles? taxonomists know that here in the pnw we have several distinct species, do we then carry dna machines into the field to determine thier identity before picking? will the morphology of the mushrooms we know physically change? they don't taste any different when renamed. but in fact, the "renaming" will be relatively uncommon. new species will get names, some that don't deserve species status will simply merge into the synonyms. linguistically, taxonomy is prepared for this eventuality. and i wouldn't be surprised if the average mushroom hunter didn't notice any change in his mushrooms from year to year, regardless of what taxonomy says.
(as a pre-condition to this, i should say screw the armillarias.)

i wouldn't mind there being only three morels.

(this is just a general response to the ideas about how sequencing will affect us, not to you in particular, plute.)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: pluteus]
    #2283696 -

Pluteus ask MJ,
Quote:
"What sequence data will you be using?"



Mj replies,
Quote:
"DNA analysis we use ITS."


mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2307190 -

wow. yall's big brains are making my little brain hurt. :nut:


--------------------
hope i never hear surf music again...

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: trollbaby]
    #2332197 -

Choice of DNA region(s) is of course a tradeoff between statistical rigour/practicality = scientific probity /time+money.

It would be reassuring to see more researchers ensuring that their chosen regions are multiple (+ unlinked + single copy in the case of protein genes), are appropriately variable, and are reconstructed sensibly. (MJ, using only ITS data - nu? mit? - to confidently resolve multiple between- species relationships....hmmm)

These issues aside, to draw firm taxonomic conclusions based on a finding that 0.0000001% of the genomes of a few samples have or have not diverged in a particular way is crazy. Yet this still happens.
The factors underlying uncertainty are also often misreported...

I wish there was a forum somewhere to discuss molecular mycology/ evolutionary mycology/ ecological mycology/ mycogenetics/ mycotaxonomy etc.etc. In other words, active mycological research! There always seems to be a flurry of interest whenever issues relating to these fields are touched on here. Is the Shroomery too amateur-oriented to support this type of thing? I have yet to find a decent purely academic online mycology forum, probably cos most active researchers are content with the journals+conferences+personal contacts system of networking ideas and information. But even less formal discussions about the hard science would eventually relate back and hopefully illuminate the issues concerning the majority of Shroomerites.
Or maybe it would just be totally crap.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe Moravica from Czechoslovakia [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2333571 -

Living in what some would call an 'exotic' location and facing the prospect of, as a TOTAL noob, locating, identifying & making responsible use of some lesser known species... I'm glad such enthusiastic mycophiles are out there.

Many thanks for all your hard work and good advice (You will make some Czekoslovakian shroomers happier and safer as well as opening new possibilities for those in 'mainstream' locations)

Exciting stuff (maybe I don't understand the deeper implications, but I know a nice nipple when I see one... I could suck on one of those all night)


--------------------
Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4787014 -

Today I harevested the first Psilocybe moravica I cultivated in Austria.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Anno]
    #4787726 -

Will you come with pictures of all your woodlovers this year as well?

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: aaa]
    #4791431 -

I will try.

Psilocybe moravica



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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Anno]
    #4791509 -

Good job! Are you having a dry fall in Austria as well?


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watchdominion.org

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: ivi]
    #4791519 -

No, it's rather rainy.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Anno]
    #4792160 -

I thought it was spring there?

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: psiclops]
    #4792491 -

in Austria?
You are confusing Australia for Austria.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Anno]
    #4792794 -

Yeah, I had. hey, nice gallery, by the way.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Anno]
    #4795455 -

Anno said:
I will try.

Psilocybe moravica





man those look like light skinned weilii, very similar caps, both hydophandous and nippled, similar stems and gills. where did you find those?


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:goose:

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: psiclops]
    #4796070 -

That would be hygrophanous which means they change color when aging or drying

Nice pictures Anno and Hi from bangkok

mj

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Dimmy] * 1
    #9963412 -



did anyone try to combine moravica with bohemica to find out whether these two are not the same?


--------------------


Karel Capek's The Absolute at Large is the major psychedelic milestone literature. READ IT NOW!

Edited by HCLivess (03/13/09 06:23 AM)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: HCLivess]
    #9963582 -

WoW i had to do a double take when i saw a John Allen thread:eek:

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: HCLivess]
    #9964071 -

Quote:
did anyone try to combine moravica with bohemica to find out whether these two are not the same?


You should ask Jan Boravica about that.

Did you take those pictures?  They are awesome!

Its interesting how these woodlovers are found in the middle of the woods, in my part of the usa woodlovers only occur in urban landscaping and beach dune grasses. 

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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Psilocybe moravica from the Czech republic [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9966191 -
Log in to view attachment

I did not take those pictures, I just googled them out to put them to my mycoalbum. There is a pdf by Borovicka, which is not very detailed. He only compares microscopic pictures, no breeding experiments. I mean, we need a proof :smile: Its more like a new variety than a strain, even Borovicka admits. He says that both bohemica and moravica are sub-specie (stirp) of Psilocybe serbica. See more for comparison:

PSILOCYBE MORAVICA:


PSILOCYBE BOHEMICA:


Code:
The description of Psilocybe moravica var. sternberkiana Borovička is based
on studies of two fresh collections from the Czech Republic and one dried collection
obtained from Germany. Herbarium specimens are available at PRM.
Holotype and paratype collections of Psilocybe bohemica Šebek ex Šebek (kept at
PRM) were studied microscopically.

Edited by HCLivess (03/13/09 06:14 PM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Hunting and Identification
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