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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Annom]
    #3639427 -

Well it is pretty much known that everything that happens to you in hypnosis is because you believe it will, that is the main principle hypnotists are taking advantage of, that's what it is all about.

But hypnosis on it's own IS a different state of mind. It is induced because you believe it will be induced, that is right, but that doesn't make it any less a "different" state of mind.

But hypnosis is not all about giving suggestions, you can enter hypnosis and stay that way for an hour, do nothing, and come back to normal "mode" again, and it's still hypnosis you were in.
You don't need to play tricks to be in hypnosis.

Hypnosis is as different from normal state of mind as morning half-sleep state of mind is.

Subjective experience depends from person to person, but there is something objectivly happening to your mind.

And as for accessing subconsciousness, yes I believe in that because
no conscious belief can make you not see selected persons standing in the room in front of you, no conscious belief can make your brain
recreate the space they are blocking just like that. It has to be a
deep reprograming of the mind.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: skystone]
    #3642320 -

I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Somnambulism IS the working state, and nothing is done without it. Only a small number of subjects do not get into this state.

"Catalepsy," the Esdaile State, or Hypnotic Coma is useless for uncovering material or placing suggestions. Catalepsy can be be observed when a subject has 'waxy flexibility,' like a catatonic schizophrenic. One can arrange the subject's arms or legs in strange positions and they will remain that way for long periods. The Esdaile State has been used for performing limb amputations without pain AND with minimal bleedding. Esdaile and James Braid performed hundreds of such amputations in India, but Indian people are accustomed to the reality of trance states and were excellent subjects.

I'm a Certified Diplomate in Clinical Hypnotherapy (NBCCH) and have practiced since 1989.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3642392 -

Well I believe you that you are clear on your definitions, but
It seems our definitions are compleatly different, I don't know how that might happened..

All kinds of researchers had their own division of the stages ,
some of them had 30 stages in their definitions, so perhapse
you and I wer somehow infromed from different "schools"

I know that you are a pro, so I absolutley do not question you..
but you know I didn't google on this..
I've been reading tons of books on hypnosis and this division
is something i took for granted, untill now..

Is it possible that european and american definitions are different?


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3642729 -

> Then have them open their eyes and count aloud: '1-2-3-4-5-7-8-9-10-11!!!' What? I have 11 fingers?!

Always fun to take this a step futher and ask them to figure out which hand has has the extra finger. (Works even better when the lost number is 4... they end up with two hands of 6 fingers each giving 12 fingers... so which is it, 10, 11, or 12 fingers?)

> They are the really strong believers! It's all about believing in hypnotism. It doesn't really 'work'.

Incorrect. It is all about focus, belief has nothing to do with it.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Seuss]
    #3643414 -

Quote:
> They are the really strong believers! It's all about believing in hypnotism. It doesn't really 'work'.

Incorrect.  It is all about focus, belief has nothing to do with it.


I'm talking about the hypnotism on tv. The shows where they let people do stupid things. That's all about believing in hypnotism and feeling free to legally do stupid.

Or the hypnotism where they try to grow their breasts or penis :smile: or where they go back to their birth and remember what happened. That really needs some strong believe and does not really work. People can't remember their birth, that's impossible.

The 'meditating with help of someone' hypnotism is indeed about focus.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Annom]
    #3643594 -

I'll repeat this:

there have been a lot of instances where a hypnotized person
has 100% realistic visual and sound hallucinations.

you can make a person not notice a man in the room, he will be
in suprize when he sees objects flying around and nobody is holding them.

there is allso a known instance with a black dot and the cards.
You take a stack of cards, show it to the person and tell him which card to find, then suggest to him that this card has a black dot on the back, you mix the cards and the person will pick the right one because he/she will see a black dot...

This kind of principle can only work in the subconscious mind,
the conscious mind can not analize little details on the back of every card and pick the right one.
For your conscious mind every card is the same from the back, but
not for you subconscious mind.

It simply can not be an effect of you just letting go because you
feel you can, it has to be a cotact with your subconsciousness
for these things to happen, specially the first example with missing objects.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: skystone]
    #3643646 -

Quote:
you can make a person not notice a man in the room, he will be
in suprize when he sees objects flying around and nobody is holding them.



You can only do that with very strong believers. You can never do that to me... even if I want it really bad.

Quote:
there is allso a known instance with a black dot and the cards.
You take a stack of cards, show it to the person and tell him which card to find, then suggest to him that this card has a black dot on the back, you mix the cards and the person will pick the right one because he/she will see a black dot...


What has this to do with hypnotism? Not all brain processes reach the consciousness, we indeed have unconscious brain processes, but you always have them.

Quote:
, it has to be a contact with your subconsciousness
for these things to happen, specially the first example with missing objects.


There is no 'contact'. We have brain processes. We experience some as conscious and some as unconscious. There is no messenger between them. It's just how we experience our brain process.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Annom]
    #3644080 -

The card thing has to do with hypnotism because it is done under hypnosis


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: skystone]
    #3644336 -

Please feel free to question me, but the terms I use are derivative of the Englishmen James Braid and James Esdaile. Perhaps the first real modern work was done by the French physician Charcot, who taught hypnosis to the German Freud, who in turn abandoned the practice of hypnosis for free association. You are quite right about the great number of systems and varying definitions of stages, but even the word somnambulism got popularized to refer to sleep-walking!

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3644681 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Please feel free to question me, but the terms I use are derivative of the Englishmen James Braid and James Esdaile. Perhaps the first real modern work was done by the French physician Charcot, who taught hypnosis to the German Freud, who in turn abandoned the practice of hypnosis for free association. You are quite right about the great number of systems and varying definitions of stages, but even the word somnambulism got popularized to refer to sleep-walking!




I do not question you, I'm just thinking that there might be different uses of the same words in different hypnosis "schools"..
For example one of my sources that I return over and over to is
Kurt Tepperwein, he is quite quoted and referenced where I come from (I'm from eastern europe)

Let's go again over these definitions, perhapse they are not so different, here is my idea of somnambulism, and then you post your definition, so we will compare them once again...

Somnambulism is allso called "deep hypnosis" and you can pretty
much work on anything with the patient exept things that are deeply agains his own will like suicide or something like that.
You can manipulate visual perception, cause hallucinations, go through
regresions, both temporal (or what it is called in english) and age regresions. Allso permanent changes in personality are possible in this state. It's basicly a deep state in which everything that can be done in hypnosis in general can really be done with a patient.
(I avoid the phrase "to a patient" because you aren't really doing anything to him) You can allso cause memory loss in that state.

This is my definition of somnambulism

And as for that what I said about 20% perople being able to sink so deep, I was saying 20% of all people, not 20% of people who come to hypnotheraphy.

Now you say your definition, so then we will compare, maybe it was just an misunderstanding.



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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

Edited by skystone (01/18/05 06:16 PM)

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: skystone]
    #3647226 -

I agree with your definition and haven't made my own. I usually draw on the experts with greater experience than my own for definitions if I need one. I believe that any willing individual can get into somnambulism. Only fearfulness or the effect of benzodiazepine drugs like Valium, Xanax, etc. prevent the willing subject from entering into a working state. The key word is 'willing.' Yesterday I performed most of the Dave Elman Induction on two 6th grade classes of kids. Out of about 25 kids in each class, only 2 in one class and 3 in another did not participate. A couple of girls looked to be a little ADHD and one boy was a in ESOL and a recent immigrant with minimal English skills. Several kids in each class reported tingling sensations in fingers and toes, and had reddened eyes on closer observation at the conclusion. Other kids were sleepy or dizzy (which I removed with a post-hynotic suggestion). All signs of hypnoidal states. I told the classes that this was a "progressive relaxation exercise," that I used to begin hypnosis with clients, but not hypnosis (because I don't want idiot parents coming in to the principal with hysterical fears about doing procedures to their kids w/o permission, etc.) Anyway, most kids appear to be hypnoidal - and this is a whole class I'm doing mind you - so I think 20% is way to low a figure. I've been doing this for years to demonstrate drug-free feel-good states in a lesson on Stress Reduction.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3647344 -

Ok then, so we only have different definitions of catalepsy, it seems there was no disagreement over somnambulism after all.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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