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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3508453 -

"So he's a Nobel Laureate even tho he hasn't won a Nobel prize? Go figure. "
The persons awarded this prize are called "Nobel Laureates." I did not make this up, I was merely stating a fact. Whether you agree or not with the terminology, it is commonly accepted. As I made clear in my previous post, I concede that you were correct about the prize. Why do you find it so important to belabor the point? Do you think that this will diminish the credibility of Mr. Friedman? Does this all of a sudden negate his expertise and recognized genius in the field of economics?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Autonomous]
    #3508480 -

It appears to be yu labouring the point. I made a one line post pointing out the fact that he's never won the Nobel prize.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3508585 -

Not only did you claim (correctly) he had never won a Nobel Prize, you also claimed (incorrectly) that he is not a Nobel Laureate. Illogical though it may be, the Nobel organization itself refers to the winners of the prize in economics as Nobel Laureates.


pinky


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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Phred]
    #3509431 -

from an article alex123 recently cited:

"Half a globe away from Chile, an alternative economic experiment was succeeding quietly and bloodlessly. The southern Indian state of Kerala is the laboratory for the humane development theories of Amartya Sen, this year's winner of the nobel Prize in Economics. Committed to income re-distribution and universal social services, Kerala built an economy on intensive public education. As the world's most literate state, it earns its hard currency from the export of technical assistance to Gulf nations. If you've heard little or nothing of Sen and Kerala, maybe it is because they pose an annoying challenge to the neoliberal consensus."

hmmm... most peculiar.

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: ]
    #3509859 -

:grin: ok enough arguing semantics about what is or is not the nobel prize. back to the more important issue at hand. first, i agree with SS7's definition of "exploitation" for the most part. now, one might argue that in a first world situation, labourers have the ability to form unions, have social-support, education, etc - and so if they end up being exploited by their employers, its their own fault. however, what percentage of MNCs function only on labour from the 1st world? i would venture to say not a large percentage at all. any profit-seeking company would obviously employ people in 3rd world countries - because of a lower labour standard, lower wages, less chance of unionisation, less environmental regulation, etc. this is what i mean by exploitation. any fortune ammased by playing off the lower standards of human and labour rights in the 3rd world is, in my mind, an illegitimate fortune. also, i might mention, there is a very close history between corporate interest and government and IMF/World Bank/WTO intervention in 3rd world countries. this is a different topic, that deserves its own thread, but just to mention in passing - it is very difficult (and often illegal) for 3rd world countries to claim a right to their own resources - to deny access to MNCs - and due to the wonders of "markets", it becomes a bidding-to-the-bottom process for 3rd world countries ("oh they're going to ask for a minimum wage? well come here! we won't!")

Quote:
I'm not following you. How does the fact that some trustfunder is able to buy a Ferrarri and a penthouse and take baths three times a day in a golden tub filled with Dom Perignon prevent you from succeeding at your chosen career? What opportunity has he stolen from you? What has he prevented you from doing? Is he not -- quite literally -- irrelevant to you?


most certainly not! if every trustfunder just squandered his inheritence, it would be one thing (a sad waste, but not nearly as bad as things are). but anybody with any economic sense wouldn't just buy ferarris and dom perignon - they would use that capital to purchase more means of production, to increase profit, and thus generate more capital. money bequeaths money - that is one fundamental truth of a market-based capitalist economy. so what opportunity has he stolen from me? take, for example, monopolization of entire sectors. eg - the energy sector - oil companies have so much sway, both in terms of capital and in terms of political clout, that the sector becomes stagnant. everybody knows that oil is unsustainable - but why isn't there more of a motion towards reneweable energy? why isn't it seriously on the agenda? one reason, in my opinion, is because of the immense social, economic, and political power that accompanies capital.

Quote:
Who is stopping them from gathering together and creating their own? Didn't you say there are already many businesses running under parecon principals? Why don't those workers apply for work at one of those places? How does the existence of MacDonald's prevent a parecon "ParDonald's" from going into business?



Again, the clout that capital holds - and the sway it can hold over the markets. I don't think that anybody would argue that McDonalds provides a better product - either by taste, by nutrition, by environmental externalities, by treatment of workers, etc. But due to holding such a large sway over the market, they are able to 1) formulate consumer opinion by absurd amounts of marketing, 2) lobby government (both at home and abroad) to ignore (for example) environmental externalities in order to provide a cheaper product, and 3) buy out and stifle competition. Microsoft is a perfect example of this - anybody working in IT will agree (and if they don't, well I'll take back my statement, but I will say that I don't understand their point of view at all) - M$ is not only not the best product available, but is actually one of the worst! But, due to marketing, buying out the competition, purchasing all innovation, and monopolizing control over markets - they are able to generate HUGE sums of capital, that they then use in turn to generate HUGE sums of capital. Of course, there is the existentialist argument that if people want a more equitable workplace, they should create it. And I definitely agree. However, it's not that easy... a good analogy is the game of Monopoly. Imagine you and I are playing a game of monopoly. Fair enough, yeah? Determined by the roll of the dice - our relative luck/skill in investing - etc. However, what if one of us starts the game owning 75% of the properties already, and with hotels on half of them. Would you say that this is "fair" - that both players have an equal opportunity to suceed?

Quote:
Define "wage-slaves". You surely aren't suggesting that those who agree to exchange their labor for money are enslaved, are you?


That is exactly what I am suggesting. Sure, it can't be compared to physical, "actual" slavery in terms of barbarity - but the result is the same. A ruling class, and a ruled class. Whether we reward the slaves with food, water, and a bed (as in the case of "actual" slavery), or we reward them with (in comparison to that of the capital-holders) meager pay, as few benefits as possible, and minimal control over their own work-environment - it is philosophically the same, in my book.

More to come later - gotta check my emails, make some tea, etc...


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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3510308 -

I read what silversoul7 and pinksharkmark said. I trust their judgement so I won't read the links. I'm a realist. I don't believe in communism. Plenty of Russians and Chinese I know personally tell me what the Soviet Union and China were/are like. Also, people are starving in North Korea, another failed Marxist state. I've given up trying to change the minds of the far left. The only reason I post here is to help show their naivety, since this is a public forum.


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http://www.yourewelcomeeverybody.com/gallery.php

http://www.grouchymedia.com/


Edited by Great_Satan (12/16/04 06:52 PM)

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3510375 -

Great_Satan said:
I read what silversoul7 and pinksharkmark said. I trust their judgement so I won't read the links. I'm a realist. I don't believe in communism


that's why i want you to read the links!!! this has absolutely nothing to do with communism. the only similarity is it isn't capitalism. that's it. come on - humour me - read through some of the things and post a thorough analysis of what your objections are. if you noticed, pinksharkmark certainly doesn't agree with the points i've brought up, and i certainly don't agree with many of the points he has brough up - but we've been able to intelligently discuss them. the only way we are able to do this is that we have both read each others sources!

and, just to add - out of the soviet union, china, and north korea - you won't find a single "Marxist" state... again, if you read Marx (someone whom I vehemently disagree with on a large majority of points) you wouldn't make this confusion...


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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3510394 -

Quote:

i do believe that a substantial portion of the fortunes ammased in the international free-market systems have been directly related to the exploitation of labour.




That's exactly why I want all communist governments and Islamic theocracies overthrown and replaced with democracies. We will need the help of all the people from the free countries as well as those who remain to be liberated who want to join us.
"I" should be capitalized, BTW.


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http://www.yourewelcomeeverybody.com/gallery.php

http://www.grouchymedia.com/


Edited by Great_Satan (12/16/04 06:50 PM)

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3510502 -

"BTW" is not a word, by the way. :rolleyes:


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3510600 -

Great_Satan said:
Quote:
i do believe that a substantial portion of the fortunes ammased in the international free-market systems have been directly related to the exploitation of labour.



That's exactly why I want all communist governments and Islamic theocracies overthrown and replaced with democracies. We will need the help of all the people from the free countries as well as those who remain to be liberated who want to join us.



Ok... democracy means people have more control over their own lives, yeah? Good in my opinion. But, I don't think that democracy, per se, says anything at all about the exploitation of the working class - and even less about the exploitation of a foreign working class. It's definitely honorable to want to bring more freedom to people around the world - and centralised "communist" regimes, and religious theocracies of any kind, both include a lack of personal freedom (or perhaps we might more reasonably call it self-determination) as a part of their basic values. But let's continue down this line of thought, not just stop at empty rhetoric like "I want to bring freedom." How would we establish this freedom? Through market-based capitalism? Then how do we justify the record that market-based capitalism has not significantly improved conditions for a large majority of people in the world. In fact, some might even argue that it has worsened their condition by continued disregard for environmental and social externalities. Is market-based capitalism the best system? In the words of the economist John Maynard Keynes, "[Capitalism] is not a success. It is not intelligent, it is not beautiful, it is not just, it is not virtuous - and it doesn't deliver the goods. In short, we dislike it, and we are beginning to despise it. But when we wonder what to put in its place, we are extremely perplexed." That is what the links that I posted attempts to create - some sort of "alternative." If you read through them, you would notice that the basic theory is fundamentally against both market-capitalism, and socialism (both market-based and centrally planned). It's easy enough to stop at rhetoric - to say we want people to be "free" - the more difficult task is to discuss what systems we have in place today, and what new systems might we need, to achieve this. (and perhaps the even more difficult task would be to define and analyse what we mean by "freedom"). I addressed this thread specifically to you because you seem to be a man of strong and firm opinion. I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't have your own opinions - what I was hoping for was a dialogue, supported by clear and formal argument - not just rhetoric. If i wanted to hear rhetoric with little or no thought behind it, i'd listen to our president - here i was hoping that we might move beyond the P.R. world of catchphrases and actually discuss and analyse some issues of importance.


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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3511014 -

How is someone who earns enough to live being exploited?

I don't think you have shown this.

You have to show that the system you want to change is flawed before you go about changing it.

Define a poor person in the USA, as you see it.
Define an exploited person as you see it.

Do you consider children doing chores for mom and dad exploited. How about the kid who as an adult works for their parent for wages far less then their parent.

Personally I can't find a poor person in America that has a full time job. They seem to only become poor when they have DEPENDENTS ALSO.

One income and more then one mouth to house feed cloth etc... That is when they become poor. Otherwise it is all a bunch of GOODS to be purchased and I am sure you don't consider Xbox, ferraris, etc... a neccessity. So what do you consider poor and exploited?

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: ]
    #3511028 -

mushmaster said:
from an article alex123 recently cited:

"Half a globe away from Chile, an alternative economic experiment was succeeding quietly and bloodlessly. The southern Indian state of Kerala is the laboratory for the humane development theories of Amartya Sen, this year's winner of the nobel Prize in Economics. Committed to income re-distribution and universal social services, Kerala built an economy on intensive public education. As the world's most literate state, it earns its hard currency from the export of technical assistance to Gulf nations. If you've heard little or nothing of Sen and Kerala, maybe it is because they pose an annoying challenge to the neoliberal consensus."

hmmm... most peculiar.



Bravo!


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: EonTan]
    #3511109 -

EonTan said:
Define a poor person in the USA, as you see it.


Any person who is not making a "livable" wage. This would be a wage enough to provide food, shelter, clothing, medical insurance, education (up to and including university), transportation to and from work, social security, and enough extra income or paid days off to have some leisure time. As well, since we have no socialised health-care or education, they would need enough to pay for their children and/or spouse as well. So 45 million americans without healthcare are all "poor." As well as all the homeless. I'd also include those people who are so greatly indebted that they have no chance of getting themselves out.

Quote:
Define an exploited person as you see it.



anybody who does not own, either wholly or collectively, the product of their own labours. all "wage-slaves" - ie anybody who has to sell their labour to someone who has the capital and the means of production. as well, anybody who does not have economic, social, and political self-determination - ie any community being told that it cannot choose to keep its resources for itself, but that neo-liberalisation of their economy requires that they allow an MNC to come and use the resources.

Quote:
Do you consider children doing chores for mom and dad exploited. How about the kid who as an adult works for their parent for wages far less then their parent.



I consider a child doing chores for their mom and dad a part of what makes a family a healthy micro-society. Of course, if the mom and dad sit at home while the child works, and then sit around watching tv while the child cooks, cleans, washes up, etc - that is exploitation. if the mom and dad expect the child to be a contributing member of the household (of course relative to the child's age), this is perfectly normal. symbiotic relationships require work from all parties.

Quote:
Personally I can't find a poor person in America that has a full time job.


I know many people who have two full-time jobs and yet cannot afford health-care. See my earlier definition of poverty.

Quote:
They seem to only become poor when they have DEPENDENTS ALSO.

One income and more then one mouth to house feed cloth etc... That is when they become poor. Otherwise it is all a bunch of GOODS to be purchased and I am sure you don't consider Xbox, ferraris, etc... a neccessity. So what do you consider poor and exploited?


So the poor shouldn't have children? Well, that is one solution to the problem, I guess. I would argue that it is a far more rational and humane solution to restructure society so that everybody benefits from the relationship between labour and consumption, and thus there wouldn't be poverty. As to the Xbox, ferraris, and so on - I certainly don't consider them to be a neccessity. And I certainly wouldn't be up-in-arms about the ravages of market-capitalism if my only complaint was "some people can't afford an xbox!" However many many many people (especially if we take the world as a whole) cannot afford food, medicine, clean drinking water, a home, or education. This is, in my opinion, just not acceptable.


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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3511217 -

So how many children would each person be restricted to having?

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3511524 -

Krishna said:
EonTan said:
Define a poor person in the USA, as you see it.


Any person who is not making a "livable" wage. This would be a wage enough to provide food, shelter, clothing, medical insurance, education (up to and including university), transportation to and from work, social security, and enough extra income or paid days off to have some leisure time. As well, since we have no socialised health-care or education, they would need enough to pay for their children and/or spouse as well. So 45 million americans without healthcare are all "poor." As well as all the homeless. I'd also include those people who are so greatly indebted that they have no chance of getting themselves out.


First of all, you don't necessarily need health care to live. Christian Scientists, rich and poor alike, seem to do fine without it. And you certainly don't need medical insurance(though depending on how often you need to go to the doctor, it may be cheaper to have it). As far as transportation, I used to take the bus a lot, and I've seen some pretty poor people on the bus. Transportation doesn't really cost a whole lot. As far as debt goes, there are many Americans who would be considered middle-class or even upper-class who are in debt up to their eyeballs.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: EonTan]
    #3511830 -

How is someone who earns enough to live being exploited?

I presume you mean "earns enough to live until he dies from a poverty related illness".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Xlea321]
    #3512997 -

You do alot of presuming.

Any person can live on minimum wage in the USA. They just can't live like someone earning more. All your basic necessities can be purchased on the money you earn. Including health care.

You stop being able to live on minimum wage when you act like you are living on a higher income. Having children,etc...

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3513013 -

Children and spouses are not RIGHTS. You have to earn them. This means you have to be able to support them.

Until you can see this FLAW in your logic. There is no way for you to see the other side.

Your logic goes against Creation, evolution, and plain old reason. No one should be responsible for you, but you.

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: EonTan]
    #3513034 -

Any person can live on minimum wage in the USA

So the minimum wage in the US is as low as you think anyone should be paid?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: I've got a deal for Great_Satan... [Re: Krishna]
    #3513746 -

Quote:
There are numerous businesses already running under a Parecon vision. The difference, of course, is that such a business could and would never function "for profit" - and thus, when compared by a market-capitalistic measure, wouldn't be "sucessful." It's a question of values, though...


Actually, I know of several business and co-ops that use the participatory model of balanced job complexes, etc. and they are just as successful (as far as profit) as regular old top-down businesses.

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