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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3449709 - 12/05/04 11:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Are you really Paul Martin's nephew?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3449957 - 12/05/04 12:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Are you really Paul Martin's nephew?



Hah, for better or for worse, no. Thought it would bolster my case for a Great_Satan banning though. Whatever it takes.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3449985 - 12/05/04 12:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The entire social security system is a fraud

As big a fraud as corporate welfare or the "defence" budget?

Reform in the direction of privatization is not merely a good idea, it is absolutely essential if this country is to have any hope of economic survival.

I'd recomend reading Peter Lindert's latest book rather than just the usual free market doommongers.

"[Lindert] provides a valuable history of social spending and proposes a theory about why some nations spend more than others that is closely related to how well democracy works.

"One great question of the early 21st century is whether...welfare states, facing massive commitments to aging populations, will themselves create new insecurities and injustices. Comes now economic historian Peter Lindert, who has thoroughly probed the welfare state, with a surprising message: relax"

"...the most comprehensive historical and econometric examination of the essential value of public expenditures I have seen anywhere.

By the conclusion of this tour, the reader is left with a clear view of a world in which public expenditures on human welfare not only do no harm to national growth trajectories, but one in which investment in the infrastructure of human capital formation is itself growth-enhancing. This core finding of Lindert's exhaustive research will appear radical, perhaps even heretical, to a generation trained in neo-classical economics, but he arrives at it by employing the best of the theory and methodology of that discipline. As such it will be hard to refute."

Two of Lindert's major conclusions are that the spread of democracy has historically played a pivotal role in the rise of social expenditures; and that social spending has not gravely weakened economic incentives and long-term economic growth, despite the drumbeat of criticisms from free-market devotees. Indeed Lindert concludes that the net national costs of social transfers, and of the taxes that finance them, are essentially zero.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...ks&n=507846


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3450636 - 12/05/04 03:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


Two of Lindert's major conclusions are that the spread of democracy has historically played a pivotal role in the rise of social expenditures; and that social spending has not gravely weakened economic incentives and long-term economic growth, despite the drumbeat of criticisms from free-market devotees. Indeed Lindert concludes that the net national costs of social transfers, and of the taxes that finance them, are essentially zero.

BULLSHIT Mr. Lindert.  If he is referring to giving poor people money and free stuff, I don't care to argue that(even though I disagree with him).  But, if he is referring to the American system of Social Security, he is very mistaken.  The simple fact is is that a lot of people(the baby boomer generation) are going to retire.  There will not be enough taxpayers paying into Social Security to support the current benefit system for all of these retirees.  The only things that can be done to rectify this situation are to cut benefits, raise the retirement age for benefits, or raise people's taxes that they pay into Social Security.  Or I guess the U.S. federal government can borrow more even more money to pay for all of these retiree's benefits.  :shake:

Some spending on infrastructure does definately help "move a society" forward.  But, there comes a point when excessive social spending takes financial freedom away from individuals and gives it to the state.  I don't like having a significant amount of my income taken away from me by the government.  I am better able to manage my money than the government.

I think the first order of business for the U.S. federal government is to stop spending more money than it takes in.  I think we should cut everything(from the military budget to the social services budget).    We need to at least start breaking even.

I also think we should install a small tax(maybe 1% or 2%) that is taken out of all people's paychecks(rich and poor).  This tax money would go into a trust fund that couldn't be touched.  Also, people could give to this trust fund, and it would be tax deductible(like giving to charities).  The money from this trust fund would be used to pay the interest or the principal on the U.S. federal government debt.  Either we pay it off now, or the future generations will be stuck with a massive and unmanageable debt that will hasten an economic collapse.  To be blunt, we must bite the bullet now in order to save the fiscal health of the country.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3450906 - 12/05/04 05:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

As big a fraud as corporate welfare or the "defence" budget?



Unfathomably bigger than corporate welfare, can't really compare it to the offense budget due to all the intangibles (death, maiming, fun stuff like that). What was the point of even posting that? The topic at hand is not corporate welfare and the defense budget, it is social security.

Quote:

I'd recomend reading Peter Lindert's latest book rather than just the usual free market doommongers.



First of all, the free market doommongers? Time and time again person after person has explained this scenario to you -- it is not free market doommongering, it is a little bit of logic and some elementary arithmetic. Social Security is a ponzi scheme based on a 'pay-as-you-go' system. This means that the first people to receive social security benefits did not pay into the system, their benefits were financed by the workforce of that time under the promise that the workforce of a later generation would pay for them. Besides the fact that I feel this whole process is immoral and, from a utilitarian point of view, economically wasteful, the system did work (in the sense that it didn't automatically fall apart) at first. During those times the workforce was growing fairly rapidly and people didn't live quite as long as they do today, on average. Fast forward a few decades and we have a workforce that is growing much slower (declining rate of birth, etc, etc) and a population that, on average, is living significantly longer. Does it not make sense to you that these facts of demographics aren't going to mesh with the kind of pay-as-you-go system we have? Even had politicians not looted the system time after time, Social Security would have eventually reached a breaking point were nothing else changed. Either benefits would have to be reduced (more likely, the age of initial reception of benefits would be increased to around 70), taxes would have to be raise, or reform in some manner would have to be initiated. Bill Clinton, paragon of the left himself, admitted what I have just said. Do you disagree with any of that?

Nice snippet by the way. I can't wait to read the rest of that unbiased material.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3451131 - 12/05/04 06:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Great_Satan said:
Why would a Canadian care about Social Security in the USA? Oh, I see. He's just looking for more ways to insult our president. And Paul Martin is a faggot.



As the, uh, nephew of Paul Martin, I consider that nothing short of a flame. Can we please ban Great_Satan? Please.




Anyone who insults George Bush should be banned. He is the president of my country and was legally elected.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3451145 - 12/05/04 06:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Are you really Paul Martin's nephew?



Hah, for better or for worse, no. Thought it would bolster my case for a Great_Satan banning though. Whatever it takes.




So Ancalagon lied. He should be banned.


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OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,478
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3452554 - 12/05/04 11:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This time... it seems... :3rd_eye:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3452920 - 12/06/04 12:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Unfathomably bigger than corporate welfare

I presume you havn't seen the size of the corporate welfare budget lately?

The topic at hand is not corporate welfare and the defense budget, it is social security

Because you free market guys never seem to say we can't afford those when they're just as big as the welfare for poor people budget. Why is that?

First of all, the free market doommongers?

Yep.

Time and time again person after person has explained this scenario to you -- it is not free market doommongering

Yes it is. Read the book.

I can't wait to read the rest of that unbiased material.

Heaven forbid you read a viewpoint that doesn't correspond to your own  :shocked:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3454956 - 12/06/04 01:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Unfathomably bigger than corporate welfare

I presume you havn't seen the size of the corporate welfare budget lately?



I don't think you understand the enormity of the Social Security crisis Alex: TWENTY-SIX TRILLION DOLLARS in unfunded liabilities is what's on the table here. How much money was allocated towards Corporate Welfare this year? What are the projected allocations for the next few decades? Do they come close to apporaching $26,000,000,000,000? Didn't think so.

Quote:

The topic at hand is not corporate welfare and the defense budget, it is social security

Because you free market guys never seem to say we can't afford those when they're just as big as the welfare for poor people budget. Why is that?



Perhaps you have selective hearing? No idea really why you havent't heard any fiscal conservatives railing against the defense budget and corporate welfare, we do it all the time. In the Libertarian Viewpoint newspaper I have sitting in front of me, Corporate Welfare is dealt with in a 2/3rds page article on Page 2, Poverty-related Welfare is dealt with in a 1/2 page article on Page 5, and the Defense Department (and US Foreign Policy) is dealt with in a 2/3rds page article on Page 6. Not exactly topics that are being brushed aside. Sorry if this throws off your black and white view of things: libertarians want to get rid of corporate welfare at least as much as we want to get rid of regular federal welfare -- they're both immoral and both unconstitutional. In addition, I think if you could poll the libertarians of the United States, the majority of them would take a sizable increase in the welfare state for a dramatic reduction in the department of defense and a dramatically less interventionist foreign policy. This forum isn't indicative of much.

Quote:

First of all, the free market doommongers?

Yep.

Time and time again person after person has explained this scenario to you -- it is not free market doommongering

Yes it is. Read the book.

I can't wait to read the rest of that unbiased material.

Heaven forbid you read a viewpoint that doesn't correspond to your own



Time is scarce Alex, perhaps you'd like to give me a couple-hundred word summary of the arguments presented in the book, specifically showing why my summary of the 'free-market doommonger' position is fallacious. Can't wait for the synopsis! Thanks!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3455020 - 12/06/04 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think you understand the enormity of the Social Security crisis Alex

I don't think you understand it. I think you've read a few libertarian articles in a newspaper and think you've got a handle on it.

TWENTY-SIX TRILLION DOLLARS in unfunded liabilities is what's on the table here.

According to who? Using what assumptions? You do know economic predictions for what might happen 20 years from now generally arn't accurate? Just like all the bullshit scare stories "We cannot afford a minimum wage, it will lead to economic catastrophe and unemployment". Well, we introduced a minimum wage in the UK and everything's just fine and dandy. In fact in the UK unemployment went down and the economy is stronger than it's ever been. Go figure.

How much money was allocated towards Corporate Welfare this year?

I havn't checked.

In the Libertarian Viewpoint newspaper

Maybe you could quote a few articles from that about corporate welfare and the defence budget for us once in a while and give us a break from the welfare scare stories?

Can't wait for the synopsis!

Time is scarce for me too Anca. We can talk about it when you've read the book. Deal?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3455337 - 12/06/04 03:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


TWENTY-SIX TRILLION DOLLARS in unfunded liabilities is what's on the table here.


According to who? Using what assumptions? You do know economic predictions for what might happen 20 years from now generally arn't accurate? Just like all the bullshit scare stories "We cannot afford a minimum wage, it will lead to economic catastrophe and unemployment". Well, we introduced a minimum wage in the UK and everything's just fine and dandy. In fact in the UK unemployment went down and the economy is stronger than it's ever been. Go figure.

We are not talking about abstract economic theories that can't be proven. The math is quite simple.

Number of Baby Boomers retiring X (monthly social security pension + medicare benefits) = A

Number of productive taxpayers paying into the system X (social security taxes + federal taxes going into medicare) = B

In a few years, A will be much greater than B.

There are only four things that can be done:

1. Social Security and federal taxes are raised. Taxpayers will have more of their money taken from them.
2. Social Security and medicare benefits are cut.
3. The eligibility age for medicare and Social Security is raised.
4. The U.S. federal government borrows more money to pay for the shortfall.


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