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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446392 - 12/04/04 04:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

which could have

It could have, but if the employer wasn't tied into it by the government it's more likely he'd keep the money for himself and not give you anything.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446409 - 12/04/04 04:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

which could have gone into your gross wages if he didn't have to pay it to the gov




BS. That would go into your employer's profit margins not your wage. Thats determined on other factors.

Quote:

but in the long run it would greatly increase the standard of living for low-wage employees.




No, because when you do away with ss retirement funds granny and gramps of the poor who don't have a retirement plan because they were low-rent all their lives now live at your home because they can't support themselves. Now you have to take care of them alngside taking care of yourself which brings your standard of living down. Privatizing SS won't necessarily be helpful for the low wage worker at all. When you pay 16.75 out of your $650 every other week that accounts for not nearly as much as somebody makin $100,000 a year. It's the rich paying for the poor's retirement...not the poor paying for the old. Think what you want of that but don't assume this is best thing for the lower classes.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3446428 - 12/04/04 04:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
which could have

It could have, but if the employer wasn't tied into it by the government it's more likely he'd keep the money for himself and not give you anything.




That's not how it works junior. A balance is reached between the employer, the employee and the customer. When the government is taken out everybody else benefits.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446496 - 12/04/04 04:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

More profits has nothing to do with the wage of workers. The law of supply and demand is the determining factor. They will pay you as little as they can while keeping a competent workforce. If their is an surplus of workers wages go down. If not they go up, junior....


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446497 - 12/04/04 04:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

When the government is taken out everybody else benefits.

That's not how it works son. If you think getting rid of compulsory pension employer payments is going to mean they'll put the money into your wage packet instead you are living in cloud cuckoo land.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3446557 - 12/04/04 05:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Once again, I will try to educate you about competitive capitalism. Employers compete with other employers for employees and customers. Employees compete with other employees. Customers look for the best deal. The entity that makes no response to market forces is the government.
As a card carrying Marxist, I know this is utterly antithetical to your world view. However, the Marxist experiment has been an abject failure wherever it has been tried. Your understanding of the forces in a capitalist system are stunted by your refusal to acknowledge it's efficacy. You know not whereof you speak.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446588 - 12/04/04 05:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Once again, I will try to educate you about competitive capitalism

I'd much prefer you to stay on-topic and address why you believe employers would bother paying employees the contributions they currently make to the state.

Customers look for the best deal

Once again, what has this to do with employers paying employees the contributions they currently have to make to the government.

As a card carrying Marxist blah blah

:yawn:

Wake me up when you can tell me why employers would choose to pay employees the money they currently pay to the state. I presume you can't which is why you're sticking to blowing it out your ass about "marxists".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3446668 - 12/04/04 05:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Alex123 said:
which could have

It could have, but if the employer wasn't tied into it by the government it's more likely he'd keep the money for himself and not give you anything.




That's not how it works junior. A balance is reached between the employer, the employee and the customer. When the government is taken out everybody else benefits.




When there is more money kept in the system there are higher wages, greater profits and lower costs. Everybody benefits.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Phred]
    #3447314 - 12/04/04 07:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

As an aside, I know SO many people who are scamming social security. Here are some examples:

1. My uncle lives in an apartment building. A scummy family used to live above him. They did not take care of their kids, trashed the place, and received every scrap of public assistance that they could squeeze out of the government. My uncle heard the parents training the kids on how to act more mentally troubled so that they would get more money from Social Security.

2. Someone I know comes from a well to do family. His mother routinely gives him thousands of dollars and buys him anything he needs(cars, a house, etc..). He gets monthly social security checks because his back is messed up, even though he does not have to pay rent(his mother owns the property he lives on) and he never has to worry about surviving. He sits around, snorts oxy-contins all day, and doesn't work.

3. I know a guy who is a partier. All he does is smoke weed and drink. He doesn't work and hasn't his entire life. He can't read for some reason(his brain didn't form right). If you were to speak to him he seems normal, but his mind was never able to grasp reading or writing. He gets a check from social security every month and spends it on weed.

4. I know a girl who is very heavy(5'10 300 pds.). She is still capable of moving without discomfort however(she walks all over the place). She still lives at home, doesn't work(even though she has a nursing degree), and just drinks. She is more than capable of working but she chooses not to. She gets a check from social security every month and spends it on booze.

This is your tax money in action my fellow Americans!


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Phred]
    #3447408 - 12/04/04 08:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


Moreover, Social Security?s Trust Fund does not operate as a trust fund does. Social Security revenues go into the Treasury?s general fund and are automatically credited to the Trust Fund in the form of Treasury bonds. The Treasury pays Social Security benefits and administrative outlays out of general revenue and debits the Trust Fund an equivalent value of bonds. Any leftover Social Security revenue finances general government operations, with an equivalent value of bonds remaining in the Trust Fund as Social Security?s ?surplus;? to cover any revenue shortfalls.[19] This is how a Treasury account, not a trust fund, works. And calling a Treasury account a ?trust fund? to influence public opinion does not make it one.

Jesus Christ. We are buying our own debt? And some of Social Security's money is going to finance non-Social Security things?

It's just another form of taxation, not a protected and seperate program.


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3447578 - 12/04/04 08:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Now you've got it.

pinky


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Phred]
    #3447841 - 12/04/04 09:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

less money going in, more money coming out. wait until more of the baby boom generation stops working. (less money going in) i have read Europe is in big trouble too.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3448098 - 12/04/04 10:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Canada too. There's really no difference in the way the various governments handle it. None of the money is invested, it all gets spent as soon as it comes in. The payouts have to come from current tax revenues no matter what. If there are enough taxes coming in, no biggie. The problem is that there inevitably comes a time when there are not enough taxes coming in.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3448901 - 12/05/04 03:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

When there is more money kept in the system there are higher wages, greater profits and lower costs

What I'm looking for is some reason why you think the employers would give everyone a payrise instead of keeping the money for themselves.

Everybody benefits.

Do you think company directors are all "marxists" or something?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3448908 - 12/05/04 04:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This is your tax money in action my fellow Americans!

Yeah but lets face it - you could give me another 100 alleged cases of "fraud" and the amount being lost still wouldn't add up to the tax money being pissed away in Iraq for one day.

Not to mention the much larger problem of corporate tax avoidance. I'd prefer someone with nothing gets 50 bucks a week instead of a billionaire getting away with ripping off millions.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3448984 - 12/05/04 05:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
When there is more money kept in the system there are higher wages, greater profits and lower costs

What I'm looking for is some reason why you think the employers would give everyone a payrise instead of keeping the money for themselves.



That would depend on how much their work is worth to them. If the employer doesn't use that money to give his workers a raise, he could use it to hire more people, so either the current employees benefit by getting extra money in their pocket or other people benefit by finding employment.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: silversoul7]
    #3449169 - 12/05/04 08:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Why would a Canadian care about Social Security in the USA? Oh, I see. He's just looking for more ways to insult our president. And Paul Martin is a faggot.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3449190 - 12/05/04 08:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
Why would a Canadian care about Social Security in the USA? Oh, I see. He's just looking for more ways to insult our president. And Paul Martin is a faggot.



As the, uh, nephew of Paul Martin, I consider that nothing short of a flame. Can we please ban Great_Satan? Please.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3449240 - 12/05/04 09:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

He'd just come back with a new screenname. Or with his old one. I think that one just had a temporary ban.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Ol' Bushy's war on social security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3449643 - 12/05/04 10:56 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah but lets face it - you could give me another 100 alleged cases of "fraud" and the amount being lost still wouldn't add up to the tax money being pissed away in Iraq for one day.




The entire social security system is a fraud -- a fraud that, in plain cash terms, is going to cost the American people more than 100 Iraqs would, and then some. The system we have now is in total shambles, it will start running a deficit in 2018. The Social Security trust fund that was set up to stave off the inevitable would be cause for laughter were it not such a disaster. The trust fund is really made up of nothing more than IOUs, promises by the government that the money will be there. The entire thing is smoke and mirrors to cover up the fact that, if reform is not initiated, the United States will be facing unfunded liabilities of more than $26,000,000,000,000 (TRILLION!). As has been said before, were a private company or corporation to try and carry out a system akin to social security, they would be brought up on charges in a heartbeat. Reform in the direction of privatization is not merely a good idea, it is absolutely essential if this country is to have any hope of economic survival. Absence of action with regard to Social Security (and Medicare for that matter, which is in EVEN WORSE shape than Social security -- no thanks to one of Bush's most egregious actions, prescription drug benefits, of last term) will result in total economic calamity for this country. I wish I could say I'm optimistic but with President Bush at the helm, things aren't looking great (however worse they might have been under Kerry).


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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