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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500784 -

silversoul7 said:
Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)


I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:
2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.


See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:
3)Be Respectful: See #2


I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:
4)Come with an open mind: See #1


Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.


Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.


just thought I'd bump ss7's post.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3500799 -

Quote:
I was up 'till 7 in the morning last night dealing with this bullshit...


...all that work and no evidence, eh?

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500858 -


I read every response of his in that thread, and saw no disrespectful or unruly behavior on his part. He was simply inquiring in a way that any good skeptic should. You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.

Exactly. Swami simply stated his opinion, then some people told him in a rather rude way that they only wanted to hear responses from people who agreed with them.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3501030 -

If calling someone a pain in the ass is flaming, then I'm guilty as charged.

This isn't about me, it's about a lack of respect for other posters who would like to occasionally discuss something other than skepticism. The initiator of the thread was interested in hearing stories about spiritual experiences from people who think mushrooms are sacred. I don't believe that every post should degenerate into a debate about epistemology, nor do I believe the materialist position needs to be vigorously defended in threads specifically about the spiritual and mystical, it gets old.

I made my earlier post show my support for the administration's decision and to request clemency for swami. I do not wish to debate my reasons further because frankly I find such discussions pointless. That means you get the last word.

No hard feelings, I'll see you all around.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3501049 -

If posters would prefer not to discuss skepticism, then they are free to abstain from doing so. The ignore feature is there for a reason, you know. And I'm sorry that you think censoring a certain viewpoint from a thread is valid. It certainly makes me glad that you do not moderate that forum.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3501267 -

note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.

That's actually a great argument against Swami's ban. Thank you for bringing that up. The thread was entitled "For those of you who see mushrooms as sacred". Well, Swami did not share your opinion. Your argument couldn't withstand scrutiny, but Swami NEVER personally attacked you as anyone can see from reading the thread you cited. Further proof this ban is ALL about hurt wittle feelings..awwww.

You are not your beliefs. You are an eternal spirit playing a human role in space-time. Listen to Swami-jen. He show you dis, mon.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3501280 -

You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.

Ahh...but attacks upon Swami are permissible. Perceived attacks by him are not.  :rolleyes: Good god.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3502146 -

silversoul7 said:
Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)


I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:
2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.


See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:
3)Be Respectful: See #2


I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:
4)Come with an open mind: See #1


Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.


Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.


You're debating someone who's got nothing. Bet it feels a bit like bashing your head into a wall would.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3502152 -

luvdemshrooms said:
And you.... interesting that the "man" who said "Until then, I really was concerned with keeping his ban private, or between him and me" has now brought it up twice.

The first time with no prompting, the second with third party prompting.

Thanks for showing the accuracy of my original statement.


And yet again with the same predictable response.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3502343 -

Bye luv.

Banned twice in the same day... for the same reason as your FIRST two bans.

You make Swami's actions look Saintly.

Here's one that is easy for you tin hatters to prove.

Luvdem's banned because he hasn't posted in the same thread as me since OCTOBER without flaming, trolling or flat out attacking me.

When I say nothing, he does it again, as soon as he's back.

When I say SOMETHING, he complains that I shouldn't talk about his bans in public, then he returns to flaming me.

Swami uses the SAME tactics as Luvdem, but at least Swami's got some sense of tact.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/15/04 04:49 AM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3502691 -

Quote:
The initiator of the thread was interested in hearing stories about spiritual experiences from people who think mushrooms are sacred. I don't believe that every post should degenerate into a debate about epistemology, nor do I believe the materialist position needs to be vigorously defended in threads specifically about the spiritual and mystical, it gets old.



The thing you people are forgetting (to mention this once again) is there is this thing called the ignore user function. As far as I can see (and by the moderators' own admission), Swami never flamed or insulted anyone. Perhaps he was annoying to a few for injecting a dose of Reality Check ?. Well you know what? Tough shit - that is not against the rules. Be self-responsible and use the ignore user function.

As for this incredibly ambiguous and subjective and selectively-enforced "Be Respectful" rule, personally I fail to see how expressing skepticism and disagreement is disrespectful. I think if the original poster wished to avoid such discussion they should preface their thread and request to avoid going down that path.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3502879 -

In that thread about "mushroom spirits", Swami presented his point of view in a certain way that is abrasive to a lot of people. In that thread, and in almost all Swami threads, Swami expresses himself not with the hope of making a contribution to the discussion, but with the hope of correcting people's thinking with what he believes is cold hard logic. Granted, Swami said nothing personal, nothing insulting, nothing that I would interpret as being against the forum rules. Nonetheless, his presence in the thread did cause it to degenerate into a debate, rather than the poster's intention: a pooling of experiences.

More and more, I'm starting to believe that the problem with Swami exists as much on the side of those who've taken issue with him as it does on Swami's end of things. Because of this, I believe that it is as much our responsibility to smooth over this situation as it is Swami's.

Swami appears to enjoy injecting a dose of RealityCheck? (may cause hypertension) into any post where the opportunity is available. What Swami needs to understand, I think, is that not everybody needs a reality check. It is not up to Swami to decide who needs a reality check and who doesn't. As silly as he make think they are, Swami needs to have the capacity to let some discussions take their own course, instead of sparking controversy in the name of some kind of righteous allegience to verifyable data. It is unquestionable that Swami could have taken the same position without taking such an inflexible stance. Taking an inflexible skeptic's stance is more often disruptive and inappropriate than it is helpful.

However, Swami cannot create a disturbance by himself. A disturbance is a relationship between the aggitator and those aggitated. I do believe that the reaction to Swami's sometimes aggitating position is quite often much more explosive than is necessary.

Swami cannot expect everyone to adjust to his conversation style, and in some cases it's appropriate for him to keep out of some threads for the sake of keeping the peace. By the same token, each of us cannot expect Swami to adjust to our own conversation styles, and we need to show some lenience with the stance he chooses to take -- and will continue to take -- for the sake of keeping the peace. If Swami is secure in his own ideas, he should have the capacity to present them with a more flexible attitude. By the same token, if we are secure in our own ideas, we should have the capacity to remain peaceful when confronted with an argument from someone behaving inflexibly.

I believe that if Swami is willing to show a little more tolerance to others, and if the rest of the community is willing to show a little more tolerance to Swami, we can put a peaceful end to this problem, and take an important step as a community at S&P.

But then again, there are those of us who thrive on controversy, and behave in such a way for the sake of causing unrest for our own entertainment. In accordance with the forum guidelines, I believe such people should not be permitted to post in some areas of the Shroomery community.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3503181 -

Well said... as usual, Ped

:heart:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Shroomism]
    #3503368 -

Ditto.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3503400 -

you know, I appreciate swami's debunking, but he can be quite rude.

He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.

Swami is always using subtext to insult people. He's very clever about not directly breaking the rules, but I believe his intention is to ridicule in many cases.

not to mention he tried to have me banned over a 'death threat' which was purely hypothetical, even when everyone BUT him recognized it as such. Then he sent me pm's trying to drag me into his little thing with Mr Mushrooms, which I thought was childish and petty (and I'm like 1/2 his age).

anyway, I think swami is a valuable member of this community but he does go overboard sometimes, and I hope that this short ban teaches him a lesson.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3503669 -

DoctorJ said:
He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.


I think you ought to do some research into the MOST BASIC of your proud German heritage...language. Herr Doktor = Mr. Doctor. That is a far cry from a racial slur.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3503924 -


"For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming
2)No Baiting
3)Be Respectful
4)Come with an open mind
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion. "

shroomism has done a good job of showing how swami has broken these rules.

if nothing else i would contest that he is a massive violator of rule number four.


"According to the Search function, Swami used the word "moronic" in exactly ONE thread during the past year, and it was used by way of example. He did not call any specific person, any specific person's ideas, nor any specific person's posts "moronic". "

you are correct, i was mistaken into thinking he was adressing a specific person, he was not, i apologize.




Moonshoe, put your ego away for a while.


"you misinterpret things according to your own personal bias. "

no, i interpret things according to my own personal bias, as do you, and as does every other living person on earth

"That he vanishes for short stints as he does, which you interpret as evasion, I interpret as planting the seed of an interesting topic of discussion, then in the grand tradition of some of the world's best teachers, he steps aside to let people debate the issue and learn for themselves. "

that is your interpretation. and although it may be true for some situations i am refering to incidences where he would argue vehemently and savagely, and each time you refuted his points his responses would become shorter and more selective, diminishing in time down to pointing out grammatical flaws or something incredibly trifling like that, then finally he would go silent despite the fact that numerous specif questions or arguments had been directed to him.

my problem is that instead of responding with a counter argument or conceding "maybe your right" he would simply disapear.



"Trendal has expressly stated that the "How Not To Talk" sticky is NOT a set of S&P rules. And even if they were S&P rules, which they are not, they were just posted five days ago. "

i know there not rules, and i clearly stated that breaking them isnt a reason for a ban, just something that annoys me. everyone breaks em at some point though.



"Personally i find it kind of sad that someone as old as my father

but to me at least its clearly baiting.

he often annoyed me


I always had the strong sense that the guy had a total lack of interest in learning OR teaching. "


"All personal issues that have nothing to do with S&P or Swami's ban. "

true and i never tried to present them as other than personal issues. hence words like "i had the sense" and "personally i thought"

however the final one, no interest in learning or teaching, is in fact a direct violation of shroomery rule number four,, come with an open mind.

me: "I think a temporary ban is a good idea. For one thing the guy clearly spends ungodly amounts of time here, and maybe this will give him the motivation to go get some fresh air. "

You: "Of course. This is always a good reason for a ban. "

Thats called a joke.

"Fascist. "

i dont know if THAT was joke, but it did make me laugh


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3504893 -

my problem is that instead of responding with a counter argument or conceding "maybe your right" he would simply disapear.

What you're not getting here is that disappearing is NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Neither is arguing vehemently or savagely.

In fact, I would counter to say that anyone who vehemently and savagely argues a point, then vanishes after a rebuttal has summarily lost the argument.

Point that out to the audience, and sit down satisfied with your intellectual victory. Don't whine that your opponent backed down; it just means your argument prevailed.

This is better than the usual reply I get when someone's argument doesn't hold up; they call me an 'arrogant asshole' and then they vanish.

Swami just vanishes. So what?

What's the problem?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3505040 -

So did you just read over his whole post until you found a sentence fragment to argue against?
I think he stated the problem very clearly and eloquently.

Did you ever stop to think that not everyone in S&P wants their threads to turn into a savage debate?
You are talking about winning an argument.. I am talking about no arguments in the first place.

There's a difference between coming into someone's thread to offer a differing viewpoint, and changing the focus of the thread entirely into an argument or debate. I'm not saying there is no place for debate, just that it happens entirely too often, and it seems to me like many just want to share their experiences and not HAVE to debate. That shit gets old. Especially when it's someone coming into your peaceful thread just to pick a fight.
It's not the spirituality & philosphy & debate & argument & debunking forum. Though it might as well be.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Shroomism]
    #3505264 -

Shroomism said:
Did you ever stop to think that not everyone in S&P wants their threads to turn into a savage debate?


Did you ever stop to think that maybe this it's a public forum in which anyone is supposed to be able to post their views on the subject?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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