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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498764 -

Swami broke the rules. SEVERAL times.

This is, I think, the seventh time I ask this:

Please provide a link to ONE post where Swami broke a rule.

the Administration is SUPPOSED to publicly support all STAFF decisions

Even when they're wrong? This says a lot about the administration.

This will work itself out. Be patient.

It's been ~24 hours. How long does it take to dig up evidence of Swami's rule breaking?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Nomad]
    #3498784 -

i understand what you are saying

but is a wave of dissent from S&P reason not to do anything that might upset S&P? Regardless of that, the admins had communicated with swami about his posting habits, and he apparently blew them off. That is up to the judgement of the admins, but i for one trust them.

I lurk in S&P, and i agree that he did bring some very interesting ideas and sharp logic to the forum, but he could have been more tactful in how he delivered it. Saying that swami is not responsible for how people take his words is absurd..we live in the real world, and you must be accountable for your actions and words. There is always a more tactful way to phrase things.

The ban is only temporary, they are open to the ideas of reducing his ban. If everyone keeps this topic from deteriorating into "FUCK THE ADMINS, THEY SCREWED US", maybe something will come of the discussion?


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3498853 -

Swami is going to just ADORE all this attention and ramble that went on while he was paralyzed from the Shroomery boards :wink:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3498933 -

Quote:
exactly.

everyone should keep in mind that the admins own the site. if they wanted swami gone, all they have to do is hit the "delete user" button, maybe send him a "screw you and goodbye" pm or something first.

they have the power and every right to do this any time they feel like doing so. they haven't done this.

they have no need for secret conspiracies.


You seem to forget that the Shroomery is a business and members are customers (via sponsors who pay $200+ per month to display their banners). The admins must respect the customers or they will be out of business.

As for conspiracies, I am not sure what you speak of. Who said anything about a conspiracy? I think basically Trendal and Shroomism made a bad call and refuse to admit it to the point of lame excuses. To maintain stability, the administration and the other mods are either playing the excuses game or refusing to publicly denouce the banning. Not sure what you mean by a conspiracy; I think it's just a case of poor judgement motivated by ego and personal grudges being backed up by "saving face" and maintaining stability on part of the admin.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: geokills]
    #3498944 -

In this case, the desired response is for Swami to heed the countless requests/warnings that he has been sent by various Staff members over the years and begin to post with some more tact and respect for another person's beliefs.

Geo, please provide a link to where Swami was disrespectful of another person's beliefs.

Swami's terse, gruff and direct style of communication is not disrespect. The disrespect is entirely in the imagination of the whiny tattle-tale whose beliefs have been shown to be lacking.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498978 -

yes, I would like to remind the moderators and administration that there is such a thing as the ignore user function built into these boards. As far as I can tell, Swami never flamed anyone, he simply was tough in his language and debating style. If there were no flames, then those who were supposed offended must be self-responsible and use the ignore function.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3498995 -

i don't care enough about this issue to dig for any posts.

Then WTF exactly are you doing here?

considering what cervantes said, the thread i had in mind may be in the mod or admin forum.

Translation: I have no evidence whatsoever that Swami broke any rules. Never mind that I said he did anyway.

what makes you think you know where i spend/have spent my time on this site?

Uhm, this?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/percent.php?who=110594

Look, let's get back on-topic. You said Swami broke the rules. You cannot provide evidence that Swami broke the rules. :syringe:

What part am I missing?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3498996 -

Quote:
Why? Because I care about this place. Actions such as these (and the lame excuses and rationalizations that have followed) threaten my community


This isn't your community. Community belongs to the community. Get that straight first.

Also if we are taking into account time and dedication to this site, I've been here in various forms since early '99 also and have been serving as a moderator for almost 5 years. We don't get paid to do this job serving the community and we don't get a power trip out of it either. I don't recall anyone ever thanking me for spending hours of my time late at night when I have work in the morning moving threads to the dump because some asshole puppet decides to flood the boards. I don't recall ever getting thanked for many of the duties that we routinely perform to make sure the community is running fluid and peacefully.. as we are nominated by the community to do. It's expected of us. But when you do something someone doesn't agree with, it's automatically time to scream bloody murder and demand that they step down huh? I must just be on some crazy power trip and not care about this community at all right? This community which is literally the center of my internet universe..this community which I've met many shroomerites in "real life" and consider my good friends.. I care about this place just as much as you do.

No, I think that some of you may be over-reacting, just a little bit. There's been some vicious words directed at the moderators and admins in this thread and others, and I don't think it's fair. I can't speak for all the other moderators, but I serve as one with the best interest of the community at heart, and I am pretty sure my fellow mods feel the same way.

Perhaps Swami didn't deserve a 15 day ban.. that may be a little overboard.
But the information presented and a culmination of events is what led to his ban in the first place. Just to name a few: intentionally derailing threads, "character assassination" or twisting words and context of sentences to make posters appear foolish, numerous PMs of valuable individuals of the S&P community who felt they could not post freely without feeling attacked countless warning of the staff to 'mellow' this agressive behaviour and his refusal to stop. Swami was given more chances than just about any "regular" member would ever get.

If you think I have some personal vendetta against him because of our past history, I can see how you would think that, but it isn't the case. I actually like Swami, regardless of whether any of you believe that or not.. he was a valuable contributor to the community at times but at others he appeared to MANY to be a menacing bully. He intimidated enough people that they didn't even feel comfortable posting in S&P at all.. and you may say good riddance, if they can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.. but I disagree. I think of course there needs to be a "skeptical balance" especially in a forum like S&P, but when it gets to the point of people feeling like they cannot even express their ideas and beliefs without feeling attacked and having their posts ripped apart and every possible logical phallacy pointed out and exprapolated upon thus becoming the focus of attention.. it becomes something else entirely. It defeats the purpose of constructive debate and instead turns into someone just defending their character.

Now this is just the tip of the iceberg. Swami has been the center of a lot of controversy in the past and this is no exception. Personally, I really enjoy Swami on his good days.. I find his presence to be uplifting and he provides a key balance to the forums.. however when he shifts to "swami trolling" as Cervantes put it.. feelings are hurt and then they are laughed at for being emotional. This is, in a nutshell..the reason why he was banned. Although I'm sure that won't be enough for you. For now my time is up, since I have to follow this drama on the public library.

I just hope you all will approach this in a more objective and pro-active manner, instead of the malicious way it is being handled. So that we can all reach a common understanding instead of ... this way.

Peace


--------------------

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499003 -

Quote:
Swami's terse, gruff and direct style of communication is not disrespect. The disrespect is entirely in the imagination of the whiny tattle-tale whose beliefs have been shown to be lacking.


Beliefs are beliefs, and science is not the dominating king of reason in all aspects of life. We are in a scientific paradigm currently, yes, but a paradigm is just a set of theories to guide modern thought, it doesnt have to be that way.

If i remember correclty, there is no sound argument that ends in the closed circuit of physicality, which would mean that science has to give way to something else in order to be sound.

As has been discussed before, Spirituality and Philosophy is a forum for the sharing of ideas spiritual and philosophical discussion, the two dont always necessarily mix.

If people want to post their personal spiritual beliefs, they should be able to without having a group of science trollers making them look like fools. Tolerance of other's opinions is key to harmony.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3499036 -

fireworks_god,

First I want to thank you for remaining calm and logical throughout all this, as well as everyone else who's kept their cool. Though, I would expect that from you :wink:

Second, I just want to re-post my original explanation for his ban, and say that I stand by what I said:
Quote:
Well first off, Swami was not banned for the ideas or the viewpoint which he expressed in this forum. If that were the case, there would be a lot of others here ("skeptics", myself included) who would have to be banned. The funny thing is, I actually agree with Swami most of the time.

Swami was not banned for his viewpoint, he was banned for how he expressed his viewpoint. There are many others here who express the same general viewpoint, that of a skeptic, but who do so with much more tact and eloquence. Also know that this decision was not made in a vacuume. It was discussed among not only us S&P mods, but among the Admin and rest of the moderator staff. The final decision, after I spoke to Swami via PM, was to ban him for 15 days. At the end of this time he can return and, if he wishes to stay, change his posting style. Again, this is not about free-speech. There are MANY other people here who express the same general ideas as Swami.

Spirituality is an incredibly personal topic for most people. In the end, it is something we must all approach on our own, and only after we begin to come to a true understanding of our own spirituality can we begin to approach that of others. Because of this we all tend to have our own way of expressing, in words, what spirituality means to us. This leads to miscommunications quite often, which isn't a problem provided the two parties can either come together and discuss their ideas, or leave them unsaid (agreeing to disagree). There is no room for petty name-calling in these discussions, yet this is what Swami has reduced himself to.

Instead of proving his own viewpoint, Swami only tried to knock down others (not necessarily bad) and do so by insulting them or making them feel stupid (necessarily bad). The path to learning is not through insult and slight. People, in general, do not listen to what you say when you say when you say it with obvious intent to anger, hurt, or insult. Swami liked to use the excuse that he couldn't be held accountible for the way others interpreted his words. It's a weak excuse, and when I called him on it, in public, last week he became quite silent. Of course Swami knew how his words COULD be interpreted. Swami is not an idiot. In fact, he is quite intelligent. He knows the English language quite well. He knows how to use it quite well, which means he would have SOME idea of how his words/wording could be interpreted. When I confronted him on this, in private, he didn't deny it. What it comes down to is that Swami knew his words were hurtful/hateful, and chose to continue posting that way. He is now paying the consequences for that action. He knew what those consequences were, long ago, because he has been warned about his posting on more than one occaision by more than one moderator.

I do not think we are limiting free-speech in this forum by banning Swami. On the contrary, I think that by having Swami here and posting as he has been we have alowed free-speech to be stifled. It is not a crime to make a mistake, and certainly not a crime to make a mistake in a post. By making people feel stupid and insulting them for the mistakes they may make in their posts/ideas, Swami was working towards having people just not post their ideas for fear that they will be torn apart by Swami. This is not acceptible.



As for specific examples. I do not have a list of specific examples. First because I never made one to begin with. Second because my reasons were not due to about specific posts. It is a general trend of Swami, not specific posts. You will not find any posts from Swami saying "fuck you, you suck" because that's not the kind of person he is. He doesn't have to stoop to saying it that way. He is very intelligent, and obviously has a strong command of the English language. His wit and humour are good evidence of this.

I want to also say that your posts about this have made me re-think my decision and the reasoning behind it, several times. I have arrived at the same conclusion.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499041 -

What does your respect mean in the first place if you are always so quick to take it away?

Respect is earned and kept though your actions; it's not automatic.

In this case, the secrecy surrounding the 'evidence' which by the mods' own admission is in the public record of Swami's posts, is what has undermined that respect.

There is no large conspiracy at play here,

Perhaps not, but then, why the secrecy? Saving face is part and parcel of a conspiracy in my book, and a lie of omission is still a lie.

I dunno that's what happening here since the discussion is being held behind closed doors, but given the available evidence, this seems a reasonable conclusion.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499058 -

respect is earned, of course

i respect the administration because i know they are putting alot of energy towards this. I respect them because they allow a site like this to run through their unpaid devoted work. I respect them because they made a decision that they believe is true, even in the face of some harsh criticisms that arent necessarily on topic (power tripping, etc).

Even if i disagreed with them, that would not make me lose respect for them, because respect shouldnt hinge on having the same opinions.

The secrecy is present because apparently alot of the complaints have been sent by PM, and we all know its against the rules to post PMs, dont we? And you and I arent moderators/administrators, so it would be inappropriate for us to see the forums that deal with administrative topics that our noses dont belong in.

It seems a reasonable conclusion to assume that these people are making informed decisions, based on their history of service to us, the shroomery members.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3499118 -

There ARE several clearly stated rules for S&P posting, and i have clearly seen swami break many of them.

My 8th time making this request: Please provide a link to one post where Swami broke an S&P rule.

For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming
2)No Baiting
3)Be Respectful
4)Come with an open mind
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.

calling someone and there ideas "moronic"

According to the Search function, Swami used the word "moronic" in exactly ONE thread during the past year, and it was used by way of example. He did not call any specific person, any specific person's ideas, nor any specific person's posts "moronic".

Moonshoe, you're really reaching here.

Here is a direct link to the post Moonshoe is apparently referring to for those of you objective enough to bother to follow up for yourself:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3466563/an//page//vc/1

Please point out the specific rule (quoted above for your convenience) which Swami broke and the sentence where he did so.

disapearing or going silent whenever his points are under fire.

Moonshoe, put your ego away for a while.

You misinterpret things according to your own personal bias. That he vanishes for short stints as he does, which you interpret as evasion, I interpret as planting the seed of an interesting topic of discussion, then in the grand tradition of some of the world's best teachers, he steps aside to let people debate the issue and learn for themselves.

While I'm at it:

repeatedly breaking the etiquette rules as outlined in the "how not to talk" sticky thread

Trendal has expressly stated that the "How Not To Talk" sticky is NOT a set of S&P rules. And even if they were S&P rules, which they are not, they were just posted five days ago.

And:

Personally i find it kind of sad that someone as old as my father

but to me at least its clearly baiting.

he often annoyed me

I always had the strong sense that the guy had a total lack of interest in learning OR teaching.

All personal issues that have nothing to do with S&P or Swami's ban.

I think a temporary ban is a good idea. For one thing the guy clearly spends ungodly amounts of time here, and maybe this will give him the motivation to go get some fresh air.

Of course. This is always a good reason for a ban.

Fascist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 07:26 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3499278 -

People just dont get banned for nothing.

Perhaps you're right, but the available evidence dissagrees with you. :poke:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499418 -

For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)

2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.

3)Be Respectful: See #2

4)Come with an open mind: See #1

5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.

He ignored his warning... a warning that was meant to KEEP HIM HERE. Ignoring the warning alone constitutes a ban.

By my count, Swami broke 4/5 rules JUST THIS WEEK... does he really need to break ALL 5 and IGNORE A WARNING before the public supports his banning?

I suggest you stop asking for evidence, if you really want Swami to be unbanned early. The more evidence we show you, the guiltier he will look. I am just giving you the TIP of the ice burg... and you know it. :wink:

I'd love to post PM's and PRIVATE discussion, but that is against the TOS of this website... and I am a Mod. I do not wish to be demodded over Swami... just because people want to see PRIVATE information... so get over THAT.

What is Swami's punishment? He can visit ANY WEBSITE IN THE WORLD but this one... for 2 weeks (perhaps less). Poor guy.

You are crying over spilled milk.

This is HARDLY an important issue.

You may not agree with my assessment that he broke 4/5 rules... but REMEMBER, ignoring his warning was all that he needed to do to constitute a ban... something you should understand pretty well Dip.

ON TOP OF ALL THIS... Over the years, Swami has been the impetus for more than ONE RULE here at The Shroomery. Trust me, he requires A LOT OF WORK for A LOT OF US. I was up 'till 7 in the morning last night dealing with this bullshit... and I don't even mod S&P. Swami makes me work more than ANY other Shroomerite I don't know very well. This GETS OLD QUICK. Swami-trolling is not the first Swami related administrative action... it is simply the one that GOT HIM BANNED.

Thanks for playing.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499428 -

If people want to post their personal spiritual beliefs, they should be able to without having a group of science trollers making them look like fools.

Making someone look a fool is completely beyond anyone's power but the fool's.

Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your beliefs shrink away from the light of truth, then post them in a theology forum where they will never be critically questioned.

If your beliefs cannot withstand scrutiny, S&P is the wrong place make them known.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499435 -

Why don't you unban swami and let him debate you with those issues? Seems kinda weak to be able to unload on him when he can't retort. I think the uprising against this ban warrants honest discussion that includes both the accused and accusers.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3499448 -

I can't unban him. I don't have the ability... nor the authority.

You're barking up the wrong tree.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499455 -

No i'm not.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3499474 -

Ok, then I'll unban him...

Oh wait... I can't... you ARE barking up the wrong tree.

I'm only participating in THIS discussion because I RESPECT most of you, and feel you DO deserve an explination as to why this happened.

You are misinterpreting my actions.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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