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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499513 -

The secrecy is present because apparently alot of the complaints have been sent by PM, and we all know its against the rules to post PMs, dont we?

I'm not asking that the complaints be made public, but rather the specific rule-breaking the complaints refer to to be made public. This is not a conflict since the alleged rule-breaking is, by definition, in Swami's record of public posts.

It seems a reasonable conclusion to assume that these people are making informed decisions, based on their history of service to us, the shroomery members.

I'm not questioning the admins' or mods' history of service. I am grateful to them all, particularly Trendal who I consider a friend. But I would be negligent to both the community and to my friends here if I didn't speak out over what seems on the balance of the evidence, a personal matter between Tendal and Swami because Swami refused to back down when it was demanded that he 'change his style'.

In the end, we're still left with my Cut To Chase question to the mods and admins:

If Swami, post-ban, refuses to censor his style in any way, will he be permabanned?

You guys might as well come to a decision on this question now because it's a fair bet that Swami, based on his history, will refuse to accommodate you especially given the nebulous and unwritten nature of the rules he seems to have broken.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499559 -

Diploid: If Swami, post-ban, refuses to censor his style in any way, will he be permabanned?
_____________

Eventually, yes.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499604 -

Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)


11 occurences over the last 10 years. No flames. Perhaps I missed something?

I will conduct a thorough review of Swamis posts in the last month and see if I can find anything.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499636 -

Quote:
Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your beliefs shrink away from the light of truth, then post them in a theology forum where they will never be critically questioned.



re-read what i said, i dont ever remember reading a golden rule that says "ALL BELIEFS MUST BE FIRMLY BOUND IN LOGIC AND SCIENCE, ELSE YOU ARE A FOOL". Beliefs are just that, a personal belief.

S&P is a philosophy and spiritually based topic forum, maybe the suggestion about splitting them apart isnt such a bad idea after all, since philosophers cant seem to let the dreamers dream.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: daimyo]
    #3499662 -

11 occourances over 10 years? Who gave you those numbers? I didn't. How old is the Shroomery?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499719 -

Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate

Are you not aware that it's up to the claimant to provide proof of their claims, not the other way around?

So far I've done MORE than my part carefully searching and constructing rebuttals to the non-evidence you and others have presented. Why don't you put some effort into backing up your statements with solid evidence. I have in several posts here so far.

I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.

Of course. Rumors are always grounds for disciplinary action; never mind the actual (lack of) evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 08:18 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499742 -

The more evidence we show you, the guiltier he will look.

You have yet to show any evidence at all.

I am just giving you the TIP of the ice burg

Cervantes, no disrespect intended here, but bullshit! You have not given me so much as an ice cube, let alone an ice burg.

And while we're at it, how about unbanning Swami from posting just in WAF. This will stay in keeping with the general ban, but allow him to defend himself.  :syringe:

Seems a fair request, eh?

What say you, admins, mods???


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499750 -

Quote:
Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)


I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:
2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.


See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:
3)Be Respectful: See #2


I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:
4)Come with an open mind: See #1


Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.


Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499821 -

Click Search Posts. Enter Heaven's Gate into the Keyword Search Terms area. Enter Swami into the Username search area. In the Date Range field go to the Newer Than part and enter 10, then select years from the dropbox(this is the maximum date range). Click Submit.

11 results.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499842 -

Let's face it, Swami doesn't troll, he Swami-trolls...

Swami-trolling is a very subtle, hard to detect, and hard to punish form of trolling.

Translation: Swami's being punished for something so vague and non-specific it's impossible to really define.

Swami is sometimes a little sarcastic, and some people may occasionally take offense, but if you can't clearly define what it is that he does, how can you reasonably expect him to stop when you ask him to? Swami is an intelligent guy, but when someone's actions are this subtle, it's often difficult for them to realize when they're being facetious, no matter how smart they are.

What this kind of problem warrants is a sticky informing users that occasionally they may have their views dissected, and that they shouldn't take this seriously. Not singling out a member and banning them.

I can think of various times when people have said things in S&P to intentionally offend me. There's a member who has the frustrating habit of responding to posts with "your views make me laugh, haha", and nothing more. Others have told me I was doomed to hell, or that I was just too weak spirited to "get it". If I had spent some time and effort to rally people together and send in complaints, these people could have just as easily been banned. Swami's behaviour wasn't worse than these people, he simply annoyed a wider selection of folks and was therefore banned.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499867 -

Why not just lock Swami out of S&P for a period of time?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499936 -

maybe the suggestion about splitting them apart isnt such a bad idea after all, since philosophers cant seem to let the dreamers dream.

That was my suggestion way back when this all started.

I'm not opposed to dreaming, and given separate forums for each Spirituality and Philosophy, I will spend most of my time in the Philosophy forum, but I'll also make occasional visits to the Spirituality forum; and I'd observe drastically different styles of communication in each; as it should be.

An alternative that has been suggested is a new rule that the opening post of a thread be clearly labeled as "NO CITIQUES ALLOWED", in which case, the S&P membership will be bound to honor that request in that thread. A special gremlin could so mark those threads.

Seems like a reasonable compromise between banning people for speaking their mind vs splitting the forum into two.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499977 -

I'm only participating in THIS discussion because I RESPECT most of you, and feel you DO deserve an explination as to why this happened.

Seeing as you have ignored my carefully thought-out questions, I'd say you have not explained yourself at all. I was nothing but respectful. Based upon this, I am more convinced than ever that the root of this is personal. It is clear for any unbiased observer to see. The mods who spearheaded this anti-Swami campaign had documented personal issues with him and should have recused themselves from casting judgement on him.

I'm not going to waste my time here any further since those involved seem intent on stonewalling. I guess integrity doesn't really matter here at the Shroomery. Swami had truck loads of it. Maybe you all can borrow some from him?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3500068 -

I urge anyone that is undecided over whether Swamis ban is legit to look over his posts from the last month. Enter Swami into the Username Search area and click submit. My search came back with 568 results. It does not take long to see that Swami should be immediately reinstated. If the S&P rules are so sacred, then I think there are several CLEAR CUT violations of said rules that should have been dealt with long before Swami.

But one example...Search for the thread "Summation of What I Have Learned" by Swami. On the first page of this thread there is a clear example of flaming, and a clear example of derailment.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500071 -

Actually, this [off-topic posts] is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times.

Swami and his damned Banana Bread threads! Geeze, what will he do next, wish everyone a Merry Christmas, maybe?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3500208 -

Quote:
Diploid said:
Then WTF exactly are you doing here?



i posted one little observation and an overzealous groupie jumped all over me for it. i'm here because you took the thread off topic to try to pick apart everything i posted, whether it was relevant/beneficial to the issue or not.

Quote:
Translation: I have no evidence whatsoever that Swami broke any rules. Never mind that I said he did anyway.



you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Quote:
Uhm, this?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/percent.php?who=110594



is this a record for 6+ years of posting?  if you think so, can you provide evidence proving that? :wink:

Quote:
You said Swami broke the rules.



no, i didn't. here is what i said:
Quote:
I said:
i have and i really don't even go in to s&p that often.
i'm not taking sides, just stating a fact. it doesn't matter to me one bit if swami is forced to take a vacation or not. i'm sure the feeling is mutual; a 15 day ban is not a big deal.





Quote:
What part am I missing?



apparently you missed where i said i had no intention of providing proof. the thread that came to mind when i made my original post has been moved or deleted. obviously, the mods or admins are the only ones that might know its fate.
i'm not here to do your bidding and i'm not going to waste any time wading through old threads to find evidence to appease you or anyone else. 

this whole lynch mob needs to chill out. you've blown everything way out of proportion and are out to get the mods, admins, or anyone who posts something that doesn't please you.

i'm done with this thread, because:
1. as i already said, a 15 day ban is not a big deal. swami isn't going to kill himself over this.
2. this debate is going nowhere; i feel this is as useless as debating a paperweight.


--------------------
Anno cock? Is that some kind of Greek liquer? -Geo's all-knowing sex slave
Scat's way better than mud cause it's warm. -Ythan 4/23/07

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3500261 -

Well then, if 15 days isn't so bad, maybe we could just ban you for 15 days without a reason. After all, it's only 15 days.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3500285 -

anyone who posts something that doesn't please you.

I love irony!  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3500694 -

my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4

There is certainly a place for swami's philosophy in the S&P forum, but it was getting out of hand. I fully support the administration's action on this matter.


That being said, I think an early release would be merciful and honorable. Let's give swami a Christmas present and let him back in. If he doesn't learn how to play nice then further consequences will be his own fault.

Peace,
shroomydan

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3500771 -

shroomydan said:
my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4


I read every response of his in that thread, and saw no disrespectful or unruly behavior on his part. He was simply inquiring in a way that any good skeptic should. You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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