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"Make Me Angry"; A Review
    #3490191 -

Swami recently presented for discussion something that I feel is a valuable point, and an important spiritual idea. Unfortunately, for no appropriate reason that I could personally observe, this thread was locked, so I will quote the essence of his post here for continued discussion.

Quote:
Yet once again I have been accused of hurting other's feelings. If the problen was inherent in the words, then ALL readers would be negatively affected. If the problem was with the reader's perception and self-image, then only some would be outraged. Does the responsibility lie with the poster for every potential reader's mindstate? I am not talking about explicit violations of decorum. I also find it ironic that those who have a problem with my "style" can't wait to read my posts just so as to get offended. Is there not an ignore function?


Who here does not see why the responsibility of one's own emotional state replies on the reader, not the poster? Is a person who's state of being can be diminished by other's posts on the net a spiritually evolved person? If they aren't, and are on the path of learning, isn't it important to directly face the problem and work it out? Isn't exposing the spiritual weakness the first step towards treating it?

I'm baffled by how many people here apparently do not understand this... even more confused by those who would prevent discussion of this topic from occuring here...  :confused: :frown:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3490194 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3490239 -

Who here does not see why the responsibility of one's own emotional state replies on the reader, not the poster?

I would say it is a function of both the poster and the reader. Do you disagree with the premise that language can purposefully affect and insite emotion in a reader?

Is a person who's state of being can be diminished by other's posts on the net a spiritually evolved person?

I don't know the answer to that.

If they aren't, and are on the path of learning, isn't it important to directly face the problem and work it out?

I agree completely.

Isn't exposing the spiritual weakness the first step towards treating it?

Again, I agree completely. However I don't agree with the "tough love" approach to exposing the weaknesses in another's argument. It is my personal experience that people are MUCH more willing to accept what you have to say to them if you can say it in a way so that they WANT to accept it. Usually that means keeping your ego in check so you don't come accross with a "holier than thou" attitude.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3490397 -

It is my personal experience that people are MUCH more willing to accept what you have to say to them if you can say it in a way so that they WANT to accept it. Usually that means keeping your ego in check so you don't come accross with a "holier than thou" attitude.

This has nothing to do with philosophical debate and everything to do with political correctness which is the antithesis to philosophical debate.

I'd have no issue with your statement were it made in The Pub. But this is not The Pub, this is S&P!

How can you, of all people, not see that?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/13/04 11:58 AM)

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: Diploid]
    #3490445 -

How can you, of all people, not see that?

How can you not see that this is a private web site, and not a country or state where "politically correct" has any meaning?

Aside from that, my statement has NOTHING to do with being PC and EVERYTHING to do with being a kind, respectful human being. Are you not able to show at least some level of respect towards your fellow man?

I contend that anyone who claims to "give" knowledge to others, but does so in a way designed to hurt the receiver, is merely playing ego-games. They do not have control over their own ego.

Why do you argue against anyone's argument? Because you think they are wrong, or because you think you are right?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3490535 -

I would also like to point out that while SOME of us are quite adept at controlling our emotions...not everyone else is. We "hard logic" types are in the minority. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, of course, but those of us who do chose to hold a tight rein on our emotions have to realize that not everyone else can do this or will do this. Many people enjoy emotion and chose to experience it more or less constantly. I can think of no greater ego-game to play than to think that you are correct or that your method is the ONLY method to use. That just isn't the case, and we shouldn't approach things as if it were the case.

Compromise is a virtue.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3490744 -

but those of us who do chose to hold a tight rein on our emotions have to realize that not everyone else can do this or will do this.

Then those weak-minded individuals belong in The Pub where nobody will hurt their feelings with brutal logic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: Diploid]
    #3490804 -

Then those weak-minded individuals belong in The Pub where nobody will hurt their feelings with brutal logic.

That appears to be Ego-talk, exactly what I was talking about. This is a Spirituality and Philosophy forum, not a Science & Tech forum (we have one of those already). As I pointed out earlier, Spirituality is a VERY personal thing. It goes hand-in-hand with feeling, and hence emotion.

How do you know that your method is the right one, Diploid? I share your viewpoint, as I'm sure you know. I prefer to use science and logic wherever possible. However I will not fall into the delusion that my method is THE ONLY correct method. People who use emotion to make decisions can be correct in ways I can't even HOPE to be correct. There are some times when emotion is what is required in decision making. As much as I would like to use science/logic all the time...this is not a science forum, and never will be.

If all you care about is hard logic and science, please feel free to begin posting in the Science & Technology forum, where science/hard logic has its own home.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: Diploid]
    #3490928 -

I was not going to address any of this but I see that it has turn into a great big monster

Brutal logic is not what hurt my feelings. I am way past that lesson. My feelings were hurt by Swami who called me "Brother" more than once in posts and in PM's. Then Swami said somethings to me in public posts that really told me what kind of man he is and what he is capable of and what he really feels. I will give Swami's post that put me past the point of feeling safe and part of a greater community.


SWAMI SAID
Maybe. Child molestors are FORCED to undergo therapy as a part of many programs. To get a lighter sentence or be up for parole, they must participate. In this case, the public confession may merely be a facade and revelatory of no change whatsoever.


Now this post he made within 24 hours of my public confession to growing up sexualy abused, The fact that I was busted with a feloney and let go early etc.... I also was in the middle of confessing and discussing my ping pong battle with God.


Anyway here is a few lines from a large post that I had made only the day before Swamis post.

FUCKNUCKLE SAID
" In fact I came from a very twisted home with abusive parents. I suffered poverty to the highest degree. I was forced into sexual acts with adults. I was forced into drugs at a very young age. I was put in a foster home twice."

"God forgave me and told me that I was not going to spend another day in Jail. Yeah right my bail was set at 75,0000 bucks. Not only did I not spend another day in jail. I never went back. The charges were lowered.etc...."


If you notice in the begining of my post I used the word FORCED a couple of times and this word was important to me while I wrote it.
And was important in Swami post as well. Now this could be debated until the sun comes up that I am reading far to much into this. But I am not. Swami is a master at this type of technique. He has a nasty habit of knowing that 90% of the people are not going to see what he is doing. But 90% of the people he insults and abuses see this because Swami has used this known tech. Swami takes pleasure in this and the fact that most of you seem to not see it or choose to ignore it makes this place no fun. To have Swami insult you anytime he feels like it and denie it because he has good skills is no excuse.

Swami was calling me a liar, a child molester and my confessions and my desire to get feedback as nothing more than fake and weak, with no merit. I'd say he was abusive and extremly insultive.

The truth is I was busted for Drugs and let go because of fouled paperwork, thank God. I went to bible college thru a church long after my law trouble and not some Jail program,Etc.............. I was a very abused Kid who has made a miracules recovery with God and turn his adult life into a life of service and much money. I have alot to give, teach and alot to learn.


I have been called a PUSSY indirectly several times in several threads this past 2 days. That does not bother me in any way. Also I did not ask any Mods to ban Swami. I asked whay he was contuined to be allowed to do this crap. As Trendal has said Swamis's ban was his doing not any one member.

So while Swami is a huge part of this forum he has also been a huge part of pain and judemental assumptions. I have been a closet reader of this forum for 2 years and only in the past 8 months have I started posting. I have not been part of the drama. I can tell you in my experience as a Outside reader Swami is very capable of being NASTY and Mean and finds great pleasure in it. IS this the type behaviour that you will accept ? If it is then maybe my choice to leave it is the right one. I can read from a distance again


I have said my peace and hope all of you grow from it and really try not to keep worshiping Swami and not keep calling the other half of Swami's problems Pussys cowards etc........... That is very child like.

Swami has a real issue to deal with. As do we all.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3490939 -

maybe should make smiley face smileys mandatory in each post so that the weak, emotionally-oriented individuals here will feel nice and fuzzy. That'll solve all our problems!

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3490989 -

If all you care about is hard logic and science, please feel free to begin posting in the Science & Technology forum, where science/hard logic has its own home.

S&T is not about philosophy which is where my real interests lay.

Maybe we need to separate this place into two separate forums, one Philosophy and one Spirituality since they appear to have different rules of debate.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3491010 -

Should've figured that you were responsible for this.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: Vvellum]
    #3491028 -

maybe should make smiley face smileys mandatory in each post so that the weak, emotionally-oriented individuals here will feel nice and fuzzy. That'll solve all our problems!

It is calling them "weak" that I don't agree with, bio. I know many people in my life who are far stronger than I am, yet are also very emotional people.

Can you give me a logical argument for why emotional people are "weak", and also what they are "weak" compared to?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491033 -

When you allow your emotions to overcome all logic and reason...that is weakness.

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: adrug]
    #3491060 -

When you allow your emotions to overcome all logic and reason...that is weakness.

Is Love, then, a weakness?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491064 -

trendal said:
I would say it is a function of both the poster and the reader. Do you disagree with the premise that language can purposefully affect and insite emotion in a reader?


Oh definitely, but what is in discussion here involves intreptations of statements that do not relate entirely to the statement itself - often one is too caught up in a problematic mind that overanalyzes in a vain search for threats agansit a held identity of self, and they do not read the statement as it sits in reality, free of projection.

Now, since you did provide an example of a statement where Swami *apparently* stepped over the line, let us analyze it.

You honestly aren't worth debating with. You seem unable to stay on track and avoid personalisms.

Since language is a two-part game, as you yourself have clarified, the poster had an intended meaning to be represented by his words. It is the reader, independant of knowing of the intended meaning other than the statement itself, is left to intepret. It is our skills at interpretation of langauge that allows for communication - if there wasn't any proper of interpretation of language, language would be useless.

So, without further interpolation, I will analyze and interpret this statement. It is merely two sentences and the meaning of it, from an almost completely objective standpoint, is quite clear.

"You honestly aren't worth debating with."

When the person in question is not carrying forth in a manner conducive to actual debate, obviously a person who is trying to carry forth a debate will see that person as not being worth the time and energy it takes to attempt to debate, as a productive debate clearly is not happening. Furthermore, the person's worthiness when it comes to debate is completely relative to the person who made the statement (Swami :wink:). It is a simple statement that appears to reflect the reality of the matter. It is not a flame, it is not baiting, and I honestly do not see how it is not respectful, as it is a completely objective statement, relative to the way Swami feels concerning the person's ability to conduct debate.

To construe that statement as a personal attack, a flame, or as disrespectful is ignorant and without logic, as there was nothing personal about the statement. :wink:

"You seem unable to stay on track and avoid personalisms."

As the person in question continously focused, for some strange reason, on a collection of side-tracks and personal issues with Swami, instead of the actual topic at hand, it would seem obvious that they are unable to stay on track, and that they cannot avoid personalisms. Reality is reality and should be presented as such. Reality is ultimate and a faulty mind cannot escape it forever. :grin:


Quote:
I don't know the answer to that.


If someone is so mentally unstable that words expressed on a forum relative to their inability to properly conduct themselves in a manner that allows for a proper flow of discussion actually emotionally upset them, then they are not very spiritually evolved. :smirk:

Quote:
However I don't agree with the "tough love" approach to exposing the weaknesses in another's argument. It is my personal experience that people are MUCH more willing to accept what you have to say to them if you can say it in a way so that they WANT to accept it. Usually that means keeping your ego in check so you don't come accross with a "holier than thou" attitude.


What tough love? How is making simple observations as to the reality of the matter "tough love"? Filling the observation in with a multitude of fluff to cater to another's emotional addictions seperates from reality. It is impossible to conduct a proper discussion based on the actual, presented ideas that are there for debate when one must constantly stop to consider that one poster's mind might have some glitches, and then become a full-time teacher for them, constantly catering their message to them. A lot of personal spiritual growth does occur here, but as an effect of the interchange of spiritual ideas themselves, which is the focus of this forum. This isn't "help each other grow by analyzing where one is and presenting thoughts to build them up and get them to walk".

This seems to be another case of a small minority that cannot cope with minor insignifigances complaining and making a problem for everyone else. You know what? We don't need pointless drama here. Swami doesn't create the drama, hell, he doesn't even break the rules here. Some egoic minds seem to be hurt and need to lash out.  :rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491090 -

trendal said:
That appears to be Ego-talk, exactly what I was talking about. This is a Spirituality and Philosophy forum, not a Science & Tech forum (we have one of those already). As I pointed out earlier, Spirituality is a VERY personal thing. It goes hand-in-hand with feeling, and hence emotion.


Well, it seems that everyone is forgetting that third word in the forum title that starts with a "p". :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491120 -

trendal said:
Is Love, then, a weakness?


Indeed it is, if it is allowed to be.

Explain how love automatically overcomes all logic and reason for us, man.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491140 -

trendal said:
I contend that anyone who claims to "give" knowledge to others, but does so in a way designed to hurt the receiver, is merely playing ego-games. They do not have control over their own ego.


Nice contention... now... where is your evidence that condemns Swami of designing the expressions of his knowledge to purposely inflict hurt and suffering? Any statements I have seen produced were purely objective statements reflecting reality as it occured. There has been nothing to really suggest Swami has been flaming... only the built-up feelings of "that Swami has got to go" for five years....

Now, if Swami ever did cross the line, wouldn't he get banned right away, when it happens? Do you let flamers in OTD go five years without a ban? It sounds like Swami got banned due to personal reasons between him and the people doing the banning...

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Make Me Angry"; A Review [Re: trendal]
    #3491161 -

Quote:
It is calling them "weak" that I don't agree with, bio. I know many people in my life who are far stronger than I am, yet are also very emotional people.

Can you give me a logical argument for why emotional people are "weak", and also what they are "weak" compared to?


Emotional people are not weak.... people who have a misprogrammed mind that is controlled by emotion-backed demands are weak, relative to those who are not ridden with addictions....

Hey, Kaiowas? What do you have to say on this aspect of the discussion? You read the Handbook, right? :grin: Tell us of emotion-backed demands, and how they are detrimental to the spiritual growth of the person. :wink: I'll let him explain that one...

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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