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 Lun4e
Stranger
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 213
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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 Overcooking? 
#3460196 - 12/07/04 02:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, out of my 6 PF style jars, only two sites have shown any growth. I have been thinking about what might have caused this, and I was wondering if maybe overcooking played a role. My pressure cooker is very small, fitting only 6 1/2 pint jars; three jars stacked on top of three others. The fit is so tight that I could not get a hand towel to fit underneath the jars. However, I did use two sheets of paper towel, folded to make a layer equivalent to 8 sheets of paper towel. This is what the bottom jars rested on. The two jars that colonized at all were both jars which I had marked as being on top (I was worried about moisture issues). Do you think it is possible the bottom jars were over cooked? Just to clarify, out of 24 injection sites only 2 showed growth, both of which were on jars from the top. I am going to reinoculate both a jar from the top and bottom, and see what happens. Until they start to colonize (or don't), what are your thoughts?
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 Alkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine
Registered: 11/15/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
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 Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3460418 - 12/07/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you are on the right track. You could have very easily overcooked those bottom jars.
There are a few questions to ask yourself to more accurately troubleshoot this.
1) Are you sure the moisture content was right from the start?
2) Was the syringe well made or could it have been too dilute?
3) How long did you cook the jars for? At what temperature?
better luck next time
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Lun4e
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Alkaloids]
#3460477 - 12/07/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for replying! To answer your questions:
1) Yes, I followed the 2:1:1 ratio that others seem to have had consistent success with.
3) The jars were cooked at 12-15psi for 55 minuites. I have not seen any contams so that isn't an issue.
What is it about overcooked jars that makes them uncolonizable? Do they loose a lot of moisture? Or perhaps the BRF begins to change its composition at very high temperatures? The jars in question seem to show similar condensation on the inside surface of the glass as those cooked on top, when I removed them from the cooker and when I take them out of the TiT.
I am reletively sure that there was a problem with the syringes as even those cooked on top out of 12 sites only 2 have shown colonization. I am curious to find out if overcooking of the bottom jars was their problem or if out of 24 viable injection sites (assuming all 6 jars were fine), only 2 had spores introduced.
Edited by Lun4e (01/18/05 01:14 AM)
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Lun4e
Stranger
Registered: 12/05/04
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Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3461692 - 12/07/04 08:28 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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One other question: So I do have two jars with some growth. Assuming they do not become contaminated, how much longer is it going to take for full colonization as compared to having four areas with growth? I assume it would be twice as long, considering linear growth from the inoculation site on the glass to the center of the cake would have to be covered twice by the one colony, where usually there is a colony opposite which is moving toward the center at the same rate. Thanks!
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3461709 - 12/07/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it was the syringe you would show NO growth or more likly contamination. How long it will take will depend on EVERYTHING you've done and do. Patience is a huge asset in this hobby. Make sure you always shake the syringe before injecting. If water content was off that will affect it. The tek is a guidline but often you will need more or less water depending on the brand of your ingredients (some drier, some verm hold more water, whatever). Syringes can be sold cheaply because its easy to grow 50 shrooms on a single casing. If all 50 caps are printed and 50 syringes are made per print (easy to do..could even do 100 per pring) thats one hell of alot of shrooms. Many vendors have syringes for 5 bucks or even less but you often have to buy a pack. I've seen 7 syringes for 40 bucks at ralphsters and 5 syringes for 38 bucks somewhere else. Spores are cheap as fuck.
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13eetleJuice
the ghost with the most
Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 2,253
Loc: 6' under pushin up shroom...
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3461731 - 12/07/04 08:38 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lun4e said:
One other question: So I do have two jars with some growth. Assuming they do not become contaminated, how much longer is it going to take for full colonization as compared to having four areas with growth? I assume it would be twice as long, considering linear growth from the inoculation site on the glass to the center of the cake would have to be covered twice by the one colony, where usually there is a colony opposite which is moving toward the center at the same rate. Thanks!
Sounds like you answered your own question 
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Lun4e
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Registered: 12/05/04
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Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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I know patience is important here, but after 4 days from the appearance of the first spores and with no new growth, you kind of have to wonder.
I did a reinoculation of both a jar from on top of the PC and a jar from on the bottom of the PC. If both jars get growth I will know that the problem stemmed from insufficient shaking or not using enough solution (as this time I shook better and used more). If the top jar gets growth and the bottom doesn't, I will know that the bottom was also overcooked in addition to those problems.
If neither show growth I will know that there was some other problem (possibly syringe). And if only the bottom one grows I will just have to do this  .
Quote:
13eetleJuice said:
Sounds like you answered your own question
Lol I think you're right... nice Einstein pic btw. Where do you find those little forum pics; like those "This thread is gay" pictures. Those are hilarious!
EDIT: exited stoned mistake
Edited by Lun4e (12/08/04 03:39 AM)
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
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Posts: 11,483
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3466730 - 12/08/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can assure you what you need here is patience. Jars can take up to 3 weeks to germinate. I recently did 3 amazon jars..2 grew and were cased and flushed before the third started. All other strains I did at the time (4 other strains over some 4 or 5 dozen jars) also were cased and flushed before the third amazon even started. Once it did it colonized within about 8 days and was used for g2g transfers to 60 jars which are currently 70-100% colonized from 4 1/2 days ago. This was perfect conditions and everything same grain made at the same time so same water content..it just didnt want to start for whatever reason. If you add in some imperfections like maybe incorrect water content that can make even more jars do this. Sometimes shrooms are just weird and you have to just wait. Until its contaminated though..just wait..nothing more you can do but its still good..even with a small amount of spores just one tiny tiny drop of weak spore water..they will at some point..germinate and grow. If they dont contaminate first. But at that point is when you toss stuff. Until then start a new batch..try whole grains..very easy and much quicker. Theres no reason not to use whole grains really, except not having a PC..
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Lun4e
Stranger
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 213
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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 Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3471634 - 12/09/04 04:26 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, here we are a few days after reinoculation, and I'm seeing growth in the jar from the bottom. I expect the other reinoculated jar will show growth soon. I believe my problem the first time was not using a consistent amount of solution, and not shaking the syringe properly (this time I shook the living hell out of it). I have also constructed a new TIT setup that keeps the jars nice and warm, and I've gotta say is WOW its doing a great job. They are taking off. Anyway here are pics of my progress thus far.
Jar1 Day 10 (The last ring I drew way from this time yesterday. The new TIT has helped TONS)
Jar 2 Day 10 (")
Jar 3 Day 2
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fresh313
journeyman
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 13 years, 3 days
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: Lun4e]
#3472366 - 12/09/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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hehehe, looks like a map of a lake
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Overcooking? [Re: fresh313]
#3472816 - 12/09/04 08:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thats a great idea with the circles..
Oh the jars didnt happen to be hot when you knocked them up the first time? To much alcohol or not cooling the needle after flaming it could have killed spores or to hot of substrate.. Well good luck in the future 
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Lun4e
Stranger
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 213
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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 New Jars [Re: Lun4e]
#3473631 - 12/09/04 10:24 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Haha well this hobby is more addictive than I had expected. Here I am making up three pint jars. Anyway, I went out and got some tyvek, and some pint jars. I decided to try the method where you cook up some rice, put it in the jars, and then PC them. Two of the jars have cooked rice in them, and the other has a PF mixture. Also, I added a tiny bit of molasses to the water when I cooked up the rice, maybe it will help. They are about halfway through sterilization right now and I will inoculate tomorrow. I was thinking I'd use ~2cc's in each jar. Hopefully this new batch goes smoothly. Thanks for the replies everyone, and I'll have pictures in my grow log once the forum goes back up.
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Alkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine
Registered: 11/15/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
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Good call on the whole patience thing. There haven't been PF-style techniques around these parts for a long time. Everything is done agar isolate-grain-G2G-bulk. It's easy to forget how long it can take those spores to germinate.
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