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the universe
    #3366804 -

the universe has centers everywear and perimeters no where.

discuss.

if you want.

its a line from I heart huckabees that struck me as profound.

my take is that reality is primarily a function of conciousness, thus every single being with any form of conciousness is the center of its own universe. The universe is infinite, so it has no perimeters


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: the universe [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3366882 -

The universe has boundaries so I cannot comment in here


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: the universe [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3366928 -

My opinion is the universe has to have boundaries. If you go by the Big Bang theory, the universe is just an ever-expanding sphere of galaxies. So it has boundaries, they're just moving outward all the time.

Maybe if the universe expands too much, its gravity won't be able to hold it together and it will collapse, like a black hole. Maybe our universe was created by another universe collapsing, creating a mega huge black hole, and shooting the matter it collects out to some other place. Maybe that's all the big bang was, a black hole shitting out another universe it just consumed.

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Re: the universe [Re: DNKYD]
    #3366960 -

think its a play on words I consider perimeter essential to the definition of center and vice versa.

Mabey points everywhere and perimeters nowhere, or something suitabely wittier.

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Re: the universe [Re: RedEyeSamurai]
    #3367241 -

The only concept more absurd than infinite is the idea of boundaries. Think of it; if you have boundaries then there must be an exterior to these boundaries, and in such a finite universe, what form of pure non-existence could exist beyond them?

Actually, quantum physics asserts that all particles in the universe are mysteriously interconnected. One theory is that the universe is all a single point from which an infinite number of holograms--different facets of the same spherical point--are projected. In this case, the universe is beyond the conventionality of "size".

Edited by the_phoenix (11/16/04 12:12 AM)

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Re: the universe [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3368026 -

"the center is the centers of the center"
-unknown :P


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: the universe [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3368149 -

the_phoenix said:
One theory is that the universe is all a single point from which an infinite number of holograms--different facets of the same spherical point--are projected. In this case, the universe is beyond the conventionality of "size".


Interesting. :thumbup:

How do you think fractals fit into that? And the golden ratio? :wink:

And what projects and observes the hologram? Consciousness, perhaps?

:grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the universe [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3369853 -

There are centers everywhere. They're called galaxies. If you look out in a telescope away from our galaxy, almost everything you look it is moving away from you. Wouldn't that make our galaxy the center?

Yes, except the same thing is true for all other galaxies. If you were in the Andromeda galaxy, almost all other galaxies would be moving away from you. Gravity is the "center". Anywhere matter congregates becomes a "center" for everything else around it.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: the universe [Re: trendal]
    #3369860 -

trendal said:
There are centers everywhere. They're called galaxies. If you look out in a telescope away from our galaxy, almost everything you look it is moving away from you. Wouldn't that make our galaxy the center?

Yes, except the same thing is true for all other galaxies. If you were in the Andromeda galaxy, almost all other galaxies would be moving away from you. Gravity is the "center". Anywhere matter congregates becomes a "center" for everything else around it.


Sounds good to me.

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Re: the universe [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3370366 -

What's interesting is that at the center of galaxies are supermassive black-holes. The speed with which the black hole is spinning directly correlates with the speed of the stars at the outermost regions of said galaxy, light-years beyond the reach of gravity. There is something else connecting the separate parts into a cohesive whole, perhaps the concept of "ether" had validity.

Science has no good reason why galaxies in space and cyclones on the earth share the same "golden" structure. To them, this is just a random coincidence. Our "center" in a physiological sense is our center of mass, located internally, level with our bellybutton (our own little "black-hole").

It is more like a cosmic tree, unseen by the eye, blooming, with flowers in the form of galaxies. We ride around on the petals, peering off into the vast spaces between branches.


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes

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Re: the universe [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3370444 -

What's interesting is that at the center of galaxies are supermassive black-holes.

Not all galaxies have super-massive black holes at the center. Quite a few probably do, though.

The speed with which the black hole is spinning directly correlates with the speed of the stars at the outermost regions of said galaxy

How do you know this? We can't see the black holes, first because they are black holes and second because they are surrounded by EXTREMELY dense star clusters. You can't see through the stars into the center. Beyond that, I don't think we have any way of measuring a black hole's rotation (I'm not even sure that they CAN rotate, since there is no internal structure to define "rotation"). Also, the stars around the outside of a galaxy are actually orbiting slower than the stars closer to the center, though NOT nearly as slow as one would expect for the ammount of matter near the edges of the galaxy. This is where the idea of "dark matter" came from - to explain this odd form of rotation.

light-years beyond the reach of gravity

Nothing is beyond the reach of gravity. It falls off with distance, but NEVER actually reaches zero. Right now, a TINY fraction of the gravity you experience comes from an object 10 billion light years away...which existed 10 billion years ago and probably doesn't exist "right now".

There is something else connecting the separate parts into a cohesive whole, perhaps the concept of "ether" had validity.

Dark matter. The idea is that "normal" matter is pulled towards the center of a galaxy while most of the dark matter stays as a sort of halo around and all through the galaxy. Thus even though the center of the galaxy LOOKS like it contains the most mass...it is actually the outer reaches which contain the most mass.

Science has no good reason why galaxies in space and cyclones on the earth share the same "golden" structure. To them, this is just a random coincidence.

Not just a random coincidence, STRONG evidence that our theories are on the right track. Most physicists DELIGHT in finding things that share laws with other things. It's just another example of the ELEGANCE of this Universe. Just because we don't know exactly WHY things share laws with eachother right now, doesn't mean we never will :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: the universe [Re: trendal]
    #3370526 -

trendal said:
There are centers everywhere. They're called galaxies.


Yes but does "calling" something or naming it( a reference to the illusion of name and form reffered to by the vedas/eastern mystics etc)with verbal concepts necessarily make it so? Okay, i am off yet again to OTD. Wait a second. I think i got booted out of there due to my recent participation here in S & P. And B4 Swami sez it: Yes! The hamonizations of "Nowhere man" by the Beatles starts to play ad infinitum in my head :grin: Night all :wink:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Re: the universe [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3370775 -

"Just - re-member that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
and revolving at 900 miles an hour,
It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
the sun that is the source of all our power.
The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
are moving at a million miles a day,
In the outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour,
of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way.
Our Galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars,
it's 100,000 light-years side-to-side,
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light-years thick,
but out by us it's just 3000 light-years wide.
We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point,
we go round every 200 million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
in this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
in all of the directions it can whizz,
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
how amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
because there's bugger all down here on Earth."


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: the universe [Re: trendal]
    #3371158 -

Gravity is a fairly weak force, we defy it everyday. Just a few thousand miles off of the surface of the earth and we really aren't affected by it much at all. Even though I was alluding to the similarities between us, the galaxies we inhabit, and nature(which was my main point), my information nonetheless is accurate.

Black holes can and do rotate. By measuring the speed of the stars rotating around the supermassive black-hole one can determine its angular velocity. When this speed is compared to that of the outlying stars, one would EXPECT there to be no correlation because the gravitational pull of a black hole, even a supermassive one, does not reach the outer reaches of the galaxy ENOUGH to affect the speed of stars on the outer limits. Yet there is a relationship, in which the speed of the black-hole's rotation correlates directly to the speed of the star.

"Dark-matter" is just as difficult to prove or describe as "ether". Whether you call it one thing, and I call it another, the fact remains that there is a cosmic web connecting all things.

Also, the theory as to why hurricanes spiral and the theory as to why galaxies spiral are completely different. One is based on convection and air currents. The other gravity waves. These two things end up producing the same result because there is a FORCE in existence that gives impetus to everything.

Newton's 1st law states an object at rest stays at rest, yet we know everything is moving. Who set the top spinning?

It seems like science has become another religion, whose dogma is no less stringent than that of the catechism of old. Science is working to figure out the same reality that the spiritualist is pondering. I'm glad you are not taking anything that I say without first questioning its accuracy, but really, anyone can prove any point. There are so many questions left unanswered that science or religion can't possibly expect to find all the answers. If the universe is truly infinite, there are infinite questions, and infinite solutions as well. Our challenge is to find what works for US.


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes

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Re: the universe [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3372930 -

Black holes can and do rotate. By measuring the speed of the stars rotating around the supermassive black-hole one can determine its angular velocity.

The speed of an object in orbit is determined by TWO things: the mass contained in the orbit, and the distance from the center of orbit. If what you say about black hole rotation being directly linked to the speed of star orbits around it...why doesn't the same hold true for our solar system?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: the universe [Re: trendal]
    #3372937 -

Ok I looked up one of my old physics books and yes, black holes CAN rotate. I think these type of black holes are called Kerr black holes.

Though I was still QUITE certain that galaxy rotation is NOT caused by black holes, so I did some more research and came across this for you to read: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=150

"So black holes cannot be the source of galaxy rotation: they are simply too small, and too far away from most of the galaxy to do it. We think that the rotation in spiral galaxies stems from the law of conservation of angular momentum: this says that big things that spin a little bit and which turn into little things, must in fact turn into little things which spin rather rapidly."


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: the universe [Re: trendal]
    #3372976 -

"So black holes cannot be the source of galaxy rotation: they are simply too small, and too far away from most of the galaxy to do it. We think that the rotation in spiral galaxies stems from the law of conservation of angular momentum: this says that big things that spin a little bit and which turn into little things, must in fact turn into little things which spin rather rapidly."

This holds true if we suppose that we allready KNOW all the forces at work in the universe. This doesn't even factor in the dark-matter that you mentioned before. Conservation of angular momentum is a nice way of saying that "we really have no idea why they spiral, but here's the best we can do".

We know so little about our own selves that it is absurd to suppose that we know so much about the cosmos that we can say "this happens because of this". We witness a happening and do our best to explain it, but as you said, "one day" we will look back at all of our current knoweledge and think "damn, we had no clue". Its the nature of progress.

Regardless, we can go back and forth indefinitely. I have information that is from astrophysicists, you have information from astrophysicists, we can draw different conclusions, or we can agree to disagree. My original point is that I find it interesting that our "center of mass" is tantamount to the galactic "center of mass". The implications of this similarity are left up to you to decide.


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes

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Re: the universe [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3373000 -

or we can agree to disagree.

That's usually what I settle for, so it's what we'll have to do here :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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