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Anonymous

greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN
    #3095465 - 09/05/04 05:03 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

:thumbup:


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3095539 - 09/05/04 05:24 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

It might actually be a REAL poltical debate instead of rhetorical mug slinging. I'm there.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Anonymous

Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3098626 - 09/06/04 01:03 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

it's on at 1:30.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3098784 - 09/06/04 01:39 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

in what time zone?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3098844 - 09/06/04 01:58 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

im watching nigga


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3098909 - 09/06/04 02:14 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

screw the green party, badarnick has the drug policy that is very nice


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3098917 - 09/06/04 02:15 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

oh this green party guy is a vagina....badarnick is killing him


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3098934 - 09/06/04 02:18 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

"If someone comes into my apartment, he'll need twice the health care"

what a hick.

libertarians = "I'm an angry put-upon white male, and I want to bitch"

basic health care is a right. if you go to the emergency room with no money, taxpayers end up paying anyway.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Malachi]
    #3099041 - 09/06/04 02:44 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Brilliant analysis from the 1st percentile.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Evolving]
    #3099068 - 09/06/04 02:56 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

ok ok, I'll shut up, please don't use your 2nd amendment rights on me!

I admit, I'm an economic girlie man.

pfft.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Malachi]
    #3099099 - 09/06/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

badarnick is waaaay too gun crazy...seriously


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3099103 - 09/06/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)


I'm kinda amazed at how under funded it is.. minus the C-Span coverage, i could have set this up in my living room. It makes sense though do to no corporate backing.

Cobb isn't a great speaker by any means. Badnarik isn't much better. I think both these guys look alot better on paper than being reduced down to 2 min replies.

I also think there's too much of a focus on civil issues and they're patting each other on the back with it too much (though it does need air time)

I'd like to debate over what really divides them.. and that's economics. Cobb seems really unwilling to attempt to counter Badnarik on social systems as tax theft.

Their doing closing statements now..

*edit, I'm really tired of David Cobb refering to himself in the 3rd person. They both could have explained themselves alot better.. if your average american watched this they really wouldn't "know" them any better.


Edited by DigitalDuality (09/06/04 03:15 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3099196 - 09/06/04 03:35 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

yeah, there definitely should have been more debate, not just back-patting over non-economic issues.

as a side note, the green party certainly is off in la la land.

right to healthcare?

increased minimum wage (and at the same time less dependence on government handouts)?

no war in afghanistan?

repealing drug prohibition for only marijuana, and only decrim at that?

badnarik was alright, but i think he mentioned shooting people about 3 times in less than 2 hours... gotta tone that down mike!


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3099211 - 09/06/04 03:39 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

badnarik was alright, but i think he mentioned shooting people about 3 times in less than 2 hours... gotta tone that down mike!




that's what i'm saying ...geez that makes him look bad


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3099260 - 09/06/04 03:51 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Neither one of these canidates know how to take, what most would consider "radicial stances", and present them to America. It's not so much their ideals as it is their method of delivery.

Even this setting for the debates could have been more professional.

And to say Cobb is off in la la la land with a "right to healthcare".. is no more "la la" as Badnarik's pure free market when looking from the standpoint of the average american who hears Rep/Dem rhetoric day in and day out.

Badnarik mentioned Chilie as an example for health care options that could work in a free market society. You can look to Cananda and nort western europe for examples of social healthcare.

It's a valid arguement either way.

I do find it a shame that Reform Party (Nader) or the Constitution Party decided not to participate.


Edited by DigitalDuality (09/06/04 03:53 PM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: ]
    #3099324 - 09/06/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

they list it on their website, but they sure has hell haven't
pushed the on-demand video up as fast as they did any
of the other speeches or convention b.s.

c-span, that is.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3099374 - 09/06/04 04:23 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Neither one of these canidates know how to take, what most would consider "radicial stances", and present them to America. It's not so much their ideals as it is their method of delivery.



Michael, for some reason, performed very mediocre(he usually doesn't, and I've heard dozens of his appearances) in these debates. A big part of it was, as Mush said, the continual back-patting and effort to give off the aura of great friendship between the two parties. While that's all well and good, it led to Michael not calling out some of the more ludicrous statements by David Cobb. For instance: David talked about raising the minimum wage to a living wage. Michael should have automatically fired back, "Let's examine this logically. If a $5.25 minimum wage is good, and you're saying a $10 or so 'living' wage would be better, why not go all the way? Why not raise the minimum wage to $100 dollars an hour? It should be clearly visible from that thought exercise that there are consequences to every action, including the existance and increase of minimum wage rates. An $100 dollar an hour minimum wage would make it downright impossible for any sort of business to operate in this country. A $10 minimum wage would cause companies, especially small businesses, to cut jobs at an alarming rate. Why should business owners be forced into this situation and why should the blue-collar worker be put out of work because of what some politician thinks? Let the free market decide wages."

Michael also did not stress enough the blatant disregard the politicians of today have for the Constitution. When I first started having the opportunity to read and listen to libertarian views, some of what hit me most was the new knowledge that the Constitution, which I have always believed to be the supreme law of the land, was being almost totally tossed aside by the two major parties. Perhaps he was not fully cognizent of the fact that not all of the viewers on C-Span were libertarians.

Quote:

Even this setting for the debates could have been more professional.



That's a bit unfair. The Badnarik campaign funded the event almost completely by itself(the Cobb campaign helped out where it could but its funding is apparently not large) with absolutely no corporate sponsors. The venue and format were, in my opinion, satisfactory.

Quote:

to say Cobb is off in la la la land with a "right to healthcare".. is no more "la la" as Badnarik's pure free market when looking from the standpoint of the average american who hears Rep/Dem rhetoric day in and day out.




Can you elaborate? Belief in a 'right to healthcare' qualifies one as a resident of 'la la land' because no such right exists. It is a fabrication to say one has a right to healthcare. Besides the complete lack of one today, how is the concept of free markets 'out there?'

Quote:

Badnarik mentioned Chilie as an example for health care options that could work in a free market society. You can look to Cananda and nort western europe for examples of social healthcare.




First of all, Badnarik mentioned Chile as an example of a SOCIAL SECURITY system that was privatized and in which the citizens have been able to forego a state-run system and truly own and control their personal retirement account.

Many of us here have shown the vast downsides to social healthcare, most notably pointing to the system in Canada IN WHICH waiting times for surgery and treatment that is relatively routine here, can take anywhere from several weeks to many months(sometimes more than a year).

Quote:

It's a valid arguement either way.



No, no it's not.

Quote:

I do find it a shame that Reform Party (Nader) or the Constitution Party decided not to participate.



The Constitution Party candidate, Michael Peroutka, initiatially expressed desire to participate but there was unfortunately a death of someone close to him. Nader I'm not sure about. Both of these candidates should be present at the open debates starting later this month run by the excellent and vital organization, www.OpenDebates.org .


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3099534 - 09/06/04 05:11 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

First thing first.. i'm not hear to get into the same old arguement here on this board that normally results in some generic Rand vs Marx rhetoric being tossed back and forth.

I stated it's something that needs to be discussed. Democrats (and sometimes Reps) advocate further social healthcare, but try hard as they can to steer from that parituclar label. I was merely stating there are wonderful points on both sides of the arguement. I have my preference, and i'm not stating so, b/c like i said, i'm not going to debate it in this thread. The fact is.. both sides could have been expanded on a bit.. and i'm glad that they were having the discussion they were having, and hopefully got other people to discuss it as well.

The fact is a real free market healthcare system and a real social healthcare system, is something totally alien to the citizens of the United States, regardless of what each side feels about the other's validity, to the average citizen the idea is "way out there".

Excuse my mistake about the Chilie reference.

And about the setting... come on. Would a backdrop of somekind really broke anyone's bank? Couldn't they sit (or ..ahem.. Stand) at oppsotie sides of the room rather than sitting at a table holding each other's hand? I'm pretty sure they could have borrowed and extra table or got another podium from somewhere.

I really felt the debate, like you and others stated, was more of a recognition to third parties than actual debate though. In both lp.org and votecobb.org's press about it claimed to "have a "real" debate that Reps and Dems are too scared to have".. which, when i see Greens and Libs everyday.. that seems to be the case, but not today on CSPAN.

I'm glad the civil issues were covered, that they agreed on, but far too much time was spent on kissing each other's ass. Cobb came off to me as rather non-intelligent, and from what i've read of him.. he's not too bad for a Green canidate. Badnarik as you brought up, didn't put on a good show either. Neither one of them displayed themselves, their party, their philosophies, or policies all that well.




Edited by DigitalDuality (09/06/04 05:31 PM)


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OfflineTao
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Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3107357 - 09/08/04 09:47 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

For instance: David talked about raising the minimum wage to a living wage. Michael should have automatically fired back, "Let's examine this logically. If a $5.25 minimum wage is good, and you're saying a $10 or so 'living' wage would be better, why not go all the way? Why not raise the minimum wage to $100 dollars an hour? It should be clearly visible from that thought exercise that there are consequences to every action, including the existance and increase of minimum wage rates. An $100 dollar an hour minimum wage would make it downright impossible for any sort of business to operate in this country. A $10 minimum wage would cause companies, especially small businesses, to cut jobs at an alarming rate. Why should business owners be forced into this situation and why should the blue-collar worker be put out of work because of what some politician thinks? Let the free market decide wages."





Those in support of raising the minimum wage are well aware that there are costs to doing so. However, their own values are such that they believe those costs of increased unemployment are outweighed by the benefits for the working poor. I know that you don't agree with minimum wage in the first place, but if given the premise that the society wants some sort of welfare, is it not a good form welfare if it gives help to people who are at least going out and getting a job, rather than giving it as free handouts to lazy unworking people?


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Anonymous

Re: greens, libertarians debate: monday, 1 pm on C-SPAN [Re: Tao]
    #3108748 - 09/08/04 05:39 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

However, their own values are such that they believe those costs of increased unemployment are outweighed by the benefits for the working poor.

tell that to the people who are forced out of work by the minimum wage.

let's say i'm willing to work for less than the minimum wage, and while people are willing to hire me for a wage i would accept, doing so is illegal, and they are not willing to hire me for the minimum wage. a potential peaceful exchange has been forcefully terminated... i am deprived of employment and income and society as a whole is deprived of the wealth my labor would have produced... how is that fair, and who was the victim in this crime anyway?

is it not a good form welfare if it gives help to people who are at least going out and getting a job, rather than giving it as free handouts to lazy unworking people?

you understand that the minimum wage puts people out of work, correct? aren't those people going to be collecting free handouts?


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