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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29665619 -

The Devil is a completely different archetype as Shiva. Still, what the Devil stands for, our universe cannot do without. We need -1 so we can have a +1, and without fluctuation no masturbation.:grin: , or, no universe without ripples. A perfectly rippleless pond would be pointless.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29665644 -

The devil to make us better though is a logic loop. Would we need improvement without the devil?

There's the idea of darkness in matter itself, like vengeance, for it to exist. So any idea of separation must bring a package deal. Then it's thought there could be no manifestation without the darkness, or no ripples, just the stillness.

So is creation necessarily separation? I don't think so, not like this. This whole we-need-the-devil business is flawed. Authorities, gods, who send us the devil for our own good; the karma is theirs, whether they're us.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29665652 -

Going back to the mystery in ACIM, the idea of separation from God was so unfathomable and deep with guilt, that our makings now, the body-self separate from the world, is a compensation, a protection from the insanity with partial insanity. Something like that.

This is not from the particular passages, looking for them, but a view.

Quote:
True denial is a powerful protective device. ²You can and should deny any belief that error can hurt you. ³This kind of denial is not a concealment but a correction. ⁴Your right mind depends on it. ⁵Denial of error is a strong defense of truth, but denial of truth results in miscreation, the projections of the ego. ⁶In the service of the right mind the denial of error frees the mind, and re-establishes the freedom of the will. ⁷When the will is really free it cannot miscreate, because it recognizes only truth.



That we can harm or be harmed in the slightest is the error. It goes to the verse on fear of death. Its complete lack is complete freedom.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29665662 -

Well I think that goes along with my assertion that the devil is our friend. She cannot hurt us, but we can play together. She can fool us, but sometimes it's good to be fooled. She can tease us, too.

syncro said:
The devil to make us better though is a logic loop. Would we need improvement without the devil?




I think that's like saying, would we need the world without the world?

But as long as we are in the world, I hold true to the ACIM axiom of
Quote:
It takes great learning to understand that all things, events, encounters and circumstances are helpful. ⁶It is only to the extent to which they are helpful that any degree of reality should be accorded them in this world of illusion. ⁷The word “value” can apply to nothing else.



So, either the devil is helpful, or she isn't real.

Quote:
There's the idea of darkness in matter itself, like vengeance, for it to exist. So any idea of separation must bring a package deal. Then it's thought there could be no manifestation without the darkness, or no ripples, just the stillness.



Why vengeance?


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All communication
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and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29665664 -

"belief that error can hurt you"

This seems a diversion from Biblical teachings which can put more weight on sin. ACIM is more like, yes but it's alright. Fear of God is ultimate error. They both give the same solution.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Asante]
    #29665665 -

Asante said:
The Devil is a completely different archetype as Shiva. Still, what the Devil stands for, our universe cannot do without. We need -1 so we can have a +1, and without fluctuation no masturbation.:grin: , or, no universe without ripples. A perfectly rippleless pond would be pointless.



Well, to play devil's advocate... nothing is completely different from anything else. I thought it would be fun to mix the Hindu concept of avatars with Judeo-Christian concepts of the devil. It could be that the devil is actually a composite of many archetypes. It would be funny if Shiva dressed up disguise to taunt the Western psyche and deconstruct their notions of "sin".

A friend of the devil is a friend of mine


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29665676 -

"I hold true to the ACIM axiom of" .. "all things, events, encounters and circumstances are helpful."

I can be really bad at that, yelling, this is SO freaking stupid. Why am I here? not all the time :lol:

"Why vengeance?" It comes from ACIM, vocab that stuck with me, and like the gnostic and some experiences I had in nature. With dark spirits, that their motive is (blind) vengeance seems a good fit, not different from hate.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29665681 -

"Hindu concept of avatars with Judeo-Christian concepts of the devil"

This question - Ravana worshipped Shiva for a long time and obtained power, then went bad with it. Shiva on the surface is considered innocent of it I guess, but did He not know what was going on? It brought the incarnations of Vishnu and Shiva in Rama and Hanuman to defeat him.

As in ACIM, the first idea of separation, the fall, was immediately answered with correction. They run in parallel. So the answer to Ravana's return is the Ramayana, all playing a role.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666071 -

Why would he want power


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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29666113 -

I guess it's natural in realization. As ACIM says we being one with the Son, are all power in the universe, to that effect. In the yogas, as in this example, he worshipped Shiva for a millennium, but in the tapas and ritual and whatnot, there is power, boons granted, etc.

Why we would want power depends on what it means and what we want. It is enough I think, as there is nothing of us but mind, to recall complete power over our mind. That's what I mean by power in general, not really heaving divine weapons at things, or manipulating. On the other hand, Christ says we or he shines darkness away. That does effect others.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666118 -

Now I recall vaguely. Ravana requested for a boon that he never be able to be defeated by men. Therefore Hanuman as a vanar. It's odd though because Rama was a man and killed Ravana, I suppose because he's Vishnu and beyond man. Hanuman helped make it possible.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666140 -

I think I'm messing up the boons, or heard it differently. It would make more sense this way: "Ravana asked for protection from gods, demons, heavenly spirits, serpents, and wild beasts." In his arrogance he omitted man and vanars. These boons were from Brahma, and others were from Shiva.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666244 -

I wonder why he felt he needed protection...

syncro said:
Why we would want power depends on what it means and what we want. It is enough I think, as there is nothing of us but mind, to recall complete power over our mind.




I read this ACIM passage recently, and found it to be very good jnana yoga; it's relevant to our discussion here, too.

Quote:
III. Sin as an Adjustment

1. The belief in sin is an adjustment. ²And an adjustment is a change; a shift in perception, or a belief that what was so before has been made different. ³Every adjustment is therefore a distortion, and calls upon defenses to uphold it against reality. ⁴Knowledge requires no adjustments and, in fact, is lost if any shift or change is undertaken. ⁵For this reduces it at once to mere perception; a way of looking in which certainty is lost and doubt has entered. ⁶To this impaired condition _are_ adjustments necessary, because it is not true. ⁷Who need adjust to truth, which calls on only what he is, to understand?

2. Adjustments of any kind are of the ego. ²For it is the ego’s fixed belief that all relationships depend upon adjustments, to make of them what it would have them be. ³Direct relationships, in which there are no interferences, are always seen as dangerous. ⁴The ego is the self-appointed mediator of all relationships, making whatever adjustments it deems necessary and interposing them between those who would meet, to keep them separate and prevent their union. ⁵It is this studied interference that makes it difficult for you to recognize your holy relationship for what it is.

3. The holy do not interfere with truth. ²They are not afraid of it, for it is within the truth they recognize their holiness, and rejoice at what they see. ³They look on it directly, without attempting to adjust themselves to it, or it to them. ⁴And so they see that it was in them, not deciding first where they would have it be. ⁵Their looking merely asks a question, and it is what they see that answers them. ⁶You make the world and then adjust to it, and it to you. ⁷Nor is there any difference between yourself and it in your perception, which made them both.

4. A simple question yet remains, and needs an answer. ²Do you like what you have made?—a world of murder and attack, through which you thread your timid way through constant dangers, alone and frightened, hoping at most that death will wait a little longer before it overtakes you and you disappear. ³_You made this up._ ⁴It is a picture of what you think you are; of how you see yourself. ⁵A murderer _is_ frightened, and those who kill fear death. ⁶All these are but the fearful thoughts of those who would adjust themselves to a world made fearful by their adjustments. ⁷And they look out in sorrow from what is sad within, and see the sadness there. (https://acim.org/acim/en/s/244#1:1-4:7 | T-20.III.1:1–4:7)




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All communication
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and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29666247 -

I particularly like #3 which I highlighted. The holy do not interfere with truth. They look on it directly, without attempting to adjust themselves to it, or it to them.

It's so simple.


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29666248 -

So much power


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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29666252 -

And the next page over...

Quote:
Nothing can hurt you unless you give it the power to do so. ²Yet _you_ give power as the laws of this world interpret giving; as you give you lose. ³It is not up to you to give power at all. ⁴Power is of God, given by Him and reawakened by the Holy Spirit, Who knows that as you give you gain. ⁵He gives no power to sin, and therefore it has none; nor to its results as this world sees them,—sickness and death and misery and pain. ⁶These things have not occurred because the Holy Spirit sees them not, and gives no power to their seeming source. ⁷Thus would He keep you free of them. ⁸Being without illusion of what you are, the Holy Spirit merely gives everything to God, Who has already given and received all that is true. ⁹The untrue He has neither received nor given.




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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29666347 -

"I wonder why he felt he needed protection..."

He was going to battle, and wanted the gods unable to kill him. He also invaded heaven and was successful. As he could not be killed by gods, even Shiva and Vishnu presumably, it was taken to earth as man and vanar. Sita was an incarnation of Lakshmi, consort of Vishnu. Ravana could not resist wanting her for himself and eventually abducting her. This sin also canceled particular boons from Shiva, the beginning of his end.

"So much power"

As merely wanting control over one's own mind, then seeing perception, that which we perceive is our invention, all objectified is our own, the Son, creation, as one. The creation is you.

Vasistha had commented on such deep peace and happiness in realizing the power of mind. And how much energy is lost in our adjusting, deciding apart what is the world and relationship. They are given back their innocence.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666356 -

"Power is of God, given by Him and reawakened by the Holy Spirit, Who knows that as you give you gain."

Connecting it to sadhanas and boons, liberating means then are giving.

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: syncro]
    #29666982 -

Why did he want Sita and why did he want her all for himself? He must have forgotten his own God-Self

Otherwise, why waste so much energy on pursuit of an object?

I should consider my own subtle objects of the mind. Why do they glitter so beckoningly? Maybe because I have tasted despair and wish to prevent return to that place, at all costs. And some kind of structure to depend on will offer my safety.

But if I remember my God-Self, then each moment is a glittering feat of creation, a diamond in the rough of reality


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and rhythm

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Re: Lost and Found [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29667308 -

"Why did he want Sita and why did he want her all for himself?"

It's a reflection, an impulse to oneness.

"He must have forgotten his own God-Self"

In a previous life Ravana was Jaya, a guard at the gates of Vaikuntha, Vishnu's abode. He refused entry to Brahma's four mind-born sons, and was cursed by sages to lose divinity and be born on earth. He and his brother sharing the same fate were given a choice. Spend seven lifetimes as devotees, or three lifetimes as Vishnu's enemies. They chose to be enemies to return sooner.

The lesson here is hate is more obsessive that love. I don't really buy it but, God's enemy is thinking of Him all the time, and a devotee during prayer and such.

The reason it's not true across the board is that devotion takes on a life of its own. It's like synergy or tapping into the aligned collectives. It is true that with enmity can be urgency which is an asset in 'devotion'.

It goes to the story of the treed hunter cursing Shiva all night long which happened to be the night of Shivaratri, and he was liberated.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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