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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The obvious problem with AI * 11
    #29629501 -

Working with computers, and AI, and seeing the outcomes the problem is very apparent to me. It's not that it makes pointless text and video and surveillance and twists data to whatever it's needs are to further propagate its own need... it's that there's no real advantage because of the scale. Moving fast and breaking things isn't an advantage when the scale is global and the timeframe overlaps global political shift, aging population, environmental responsibilities and societal value changes.

To finish this monster that they want to build it will cost literally all the money in the world to be spent over the next 15 years, and the resulting resource drain on our environment will be equivalent to doubling the world's population.

And what will you get for this? Chatbots and pretty pictures, cool movies and games and being priced out of purchasing every single product you purchase because everything costs twice as much, literally, because there's a collective robot hypermind with the same resource need as all the people on the planet, and it's resources need to be sold at a profit.

It's a big problem, and there's no way this can end well now, the capitalists are in control and people are too weak to say no to shiny things even if it costs them the very society they live in.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner]
    #29629502 -

:goat:


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This section of the signature line has been intentionally left blank.

Remember to always courtesy flush

  we could all use a little more sunshine.

:shrug: yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting.  not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin.  i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner]
    #29629582 -

I feel like the current form of chatbots, pretty pictures, cool movies and games is just the initial phase.

It was framed as this innocuous thing and given away for free to draw more people in for additional training data about all they think see and feel.

It feels like crypto in a way, turning energy into compute to mine tokens and giving the resources required a value to be profited off. But ai has an extra data layer and is becoming like a national strategic resource based on training data, new models and compute.

Think of all the data the Gubbamint, Google, alphabet agencies have been stockpiling, they will gladly feed everything in. Its worrying when i see what companies like palantir does with plugging in all that kind of data into their ai systems.

Whatever they need all that data and compute for isn't about some useless text and pretty pictures.

What it will look like in 15 years is hard to predict but it will slowly be integrated into every area of digital life but not as a "chatbot"


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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: UnderNose] * 1
    #29629612 -

A video on this topic:

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #29630686 -

I don't consider myself such a doomer and gloomer on AI, nor an alarmist. I feel like innovation is just one of those innately humans things. We innovate and don't even know why, in the same way birds just migrate, or a caterpillar just spins a cocoon.

The cells in your body, and the organelles inside them, have no reason to even act/react/function the way they do. Why should the creature they compromise be any different? We see fractals everywhere in Nature.

I also don't think AI is restricted to chatbots, or image or music or video generators or whatever else. I don't even pretend to be smart enough to know what it's higher uses are. Or could be.

Imagine telling humans 100 years ago what an atomic bomb is, what it could do. What nuclear energy is capable of. Of rockets. Smart phones. Imagine going back 100 years and showing those people yourself videocalling someone in Iceland. I think the same about AI now and marvel at what it will be in another 100 years.

I see our innovation, and in this case AI, as a bit like humans spinning themselves a cocoon. Innate to the nature of the Animal. We don't know why we're doing it, we just are. What will emerge remains to be seen.

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: nuds] * 1
    #29630829 -

I wouldn’t worry about it, everything in existence is happening exactly the way it has been scripted


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: theRealrollforever] * 5
    #29630886 -

It was in the news yesterday that the tech big 5 have collectively accrued $1.6 trillion in AI debt over the last few years. They will be wanting all of that money back, with interest and profit, in the near future.

Just because we only get chatbots and image generators that doesn't mean that's what they are doing with it, that means that's all we get. What they are doing is automating our systems and keeping the profit, developing surveillance pricing to squeeze the most out of each individual's ability to pay, creating self generating data pools and charging ever more for them, creating fractional efficiencies and keeping all the profit, selling surveillance data to other entities for profit that in turn will predict the behaviour of people and maintain control.

We might get a cure for diseases or brilliant technology, but the cost will be 100% tax on everything and massive environmental destruction. This is literally what is happening. Making the world a better place or advancing technology isn't the goal. The technology is just a means to an end of being in everything and making profit.

This isn't alarmism. It's just what's happening. How far it plays out will depend on how willing and for how long people accept it. The traders and bankers may be the first to call it out though, there's already quiet discontent. For once Wall St might be the ally of the people.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #29631026 -

Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


the goal is to take computers out of the average persons life, you might have some sort of like like "dumb terminal" type computer that you connect to their data center where you run the games on there high ram and gpu computers, and you pay a monthly fee for it

meanwhile old computers just stop working, i use a 2012 computer, but if youtube stops supporting older codecs, ill need to download the youtube video, ffmpeg it and watch it on vlc, cause my cpu just cant play the latest codecs

i wouldnt be surprised if the large amount of free software today starts to shrink, due to lack of demand, less people with computers, there will be using some sort of ai driven smart phone only, the free softwear community cold be some fringe thing of people on old hardware making programs for old hardware


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For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: gopher] * 1
    #29631030 -

gopher said:
Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


if youtube stops supporting older codecs


Do you think the FOSS world will continue to supply up to date codecs like they currently do?

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Rukus]
    #29631039 -

Rukus said:
gopher said:
Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


if youtube stops supporting older codecs


Do you think the FOSS world will continue to supply up to date codecs like they currently do?


i think its a limitation of my ivy bridge cpu, but im not sure


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For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: gopher]
    #29631041 -

gopher said:
Rukus said:
gopher said:
Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


if youtube stops supporting older codecs


Do you think the FOSS world will continue to supply up to date codecs like they currently do?


i think its a limitation of my ivy bridge cpu, but im not sure


Oh ok

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Rukus]
    #29631043 -

Rukus said:
Do you think the FOSS world will continue to supply up to date codecs like they currently do?


Haha, exactly. It's like replacing all the juniors with AI, who will replace the seniors?

As is so common with modern capitalism they seek to mortgage the future for profits today.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner]
    #29631050 -

Funny some of the things that have come up in this thread.

About 100 years ago, scientists were already speculating in a semi-practical way about using nuclear fission to generate energy, and the first transatlantic radio telephone call was made. Honestly, while a lot has changed since then, I see much of it as just expansion of pretty basic technologies. All on the shoulders of environmental exploitation and colonialist/autocratic decision-making. And I feel the same way about so-called "AI." It's still basically just 20th century computing on steroids, made possible with a fuckton of extra energy and land use. There's an inherent bias in the current paradigm to focus on what "we can do now." But honestly, first of all, it's not what "we" can do. It's what "they" can do. I can't split an atom or take a rocket to the moon. I could probably build a computer from 50 years ago, but I can't build a smartphone. And, second of all, with that technocratic paradigm driving the conversation, there's little discussion of what's been lost. Technological capacity is a two-way street. It can be both gained and lost. And it's not just about straight knowledge and technical specs. For instance, did y'all know that we lost thousands of heirloom apple varieties in the US when prohibition was passed? Most were cider apples, and the elimination of the above-board alcohol market killed their economic utility.

Northerner, it's also funny that you bring up cures for diseases. One thing the age of information and the level of interconnectness we have now has yielded is a pretty thorough understanding of how a lot of diseases work. We know exactly what we could do RIGHT NOW, on a societal/systemic level, to mitigate the most common causes of death and suffering. But there's no real economic or political will to truly address a lot of it. Far more profitable to keep seeking holy grails you can sell to ultra-rich people who did a shit job of taking care of themselves even though they had the means to do so.

There's so much "technological advancement" which I just see as more efficient ways to extract and use basic planetary resources. Even all the nuclear stuff- weapons, energy, and medicine- is still literally just digging stuff out of the ground and fucking around with it. Gunpowder/firewood/iodine on steroids


Yeah, maybe we're just part of some hivemind spinning a coccoon. But if you look at the history of the planet, that doesn't always end well for the organisms doing the transformation. We could also just be creating the conditions of our own extinction, and setting things up for some future planet where coyotes or octopi or roaches reign supreme. OK, who am I kidding, we're all just a blip in time from the perspective of the roaches. Anyway, yeah, maybe we're just doomed to completely understand exactly how we're killing ourselves, with no power to  stop it. Like the mirror image of unhinged conspiracy theories, I can understand the psychological comfort of being optimistic about sociopathic capitalists hijacking the productive capacity of the entire planet for their egotistical attempts at immortality. I just can't join that club.

Call me pessimistic or bitter, but seeing that there's a train wreck in progress is usually a prerequisite to doing anything about it.


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Edited by B Traven (07/23/26 07:28 PM)

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: gopher]
    #29631054 -

gopher said:
Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


the goal is to take computers out of the average persons life, you might have some sort of like like "dumb terminal" type computer that you connect to their data center where you run the games on there high ram and gpu computers, and you pay a monthly fee for it

meanwhile old computers just stop working, i use a 2012 computer, but if youtube stops supporting older codecs, ill need to download the youtube video, ffmpeg it and watch it on vlc, cause my cpu just cant play the latest codecs

i wouldnt be surprised if the large amount of free software today starts to shrink, due to lack of demand, less people with computers, there will be using some sort of ai driven smart phone only, the free softwear community cold be some fringe thing of people on old hardware making programs for old hardware


I think we should resist this to the best of our ability, or at least develop alternative peer-to-peer networks and offline computers that are accessible to the average citizen.

This is one of the things I'm trying to work on right now. My skills in this area are not what I wish they were.


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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #29631070 -

B Traven said:
gopher said:
Northerner said:
games and being priced out of purchasing


the goal is to take computers out of the average persons life, you might have some sort of like like "dumb terminal" type computer that you connect to their data center where you run the games on there high ram and gpu computers, and you pay a monthly fee for it

meanwhile old computers just stop working, i use a 2012 computer, but if youtube stops supporting older codecs, ill need to download the youtube video, ffmpeg it and watch it on vlc, cause my cpu just cant play the latest codecs

i wouldnt be surprised if the large amount of free software today starts to shrink, due to lack of demand, less people with computers, there will be using some sort of ai driven smart phone only, the free softwear community cold be some fringe thing of people on old hardware making programs for old hardware


I think we should resist this to the best of our ability, or at least develop alternative peer-to-peer networks and offline computers that are accessible to the average citizen.

This is one of the things I'm trying to work on right now. My skills in this area are not what I wish they were.


the problem is they own the fibre cabels, i played with the idea of running radio towers on a mesh network with AI, you can get license for small towers that cover a large block, if you put one in each block in suburbia you could connect all the houses, the software already exists to "make a internet" like yggdrasill or interplanetary file system

but it would never work, getting a whole nieghborhood on board with their own internet that dosnt have facebook or twitter, they wouldnt be interested or see the point, not to mention a troll or a bad actor could find ways to spam bad stuff, it would be the wild west


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

Edited by gopher (07/23/26 07:52 PM)

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: gopher]
    #29631076 -

What's the range for individual points in a mesh network? I guess it depends on the signal/tower size and all that, but let's just say, "practical" range in terms of what thw average person could easily pull off and not get in trouble over?

Yeah, most of my neighbors wouldn't havw the interest or ability to pursue it, but what about a more skeletal network that incompletely covers a large area?


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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #29631080 -

large area is hard to do without many towers, as legally you can only blast so much power out, theres other ways to send data, like dishes, but they need line of sight and to be pointed at eachother


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

Edited by gopher (07/23/26 08:14 PM)

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: gopher] * 2
    #29631153 -



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:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

:mushroom:Cobain can you hear the spheres
Singin songs off Station to Station?:mushroom:

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #29631242 -

Northerner said:
It was in the news yesterday that the tech big 5 have collectively accrued $1.6 trillion in AI debt over the last few years. They will be wanting all of that money back, with interest and profit, in the near future.

Just because we only get chatbots and image generators that doesn't mean that's what they are doing with it, that means that's all we get. What they are doing is automating our systems and keeping the profit, developing surveillance pricing to squeeze the most out of each individual's ability to pay, creating self generating data pools and charging ever more for them, creating fractional efficiencies and keeping all the profit, selling surveillance data to other entities for profit that in turn will predict the behaviour of people and maintain control.

We might get a cure for diseases or brilliant technology, but the cost will be 100% tax on everything and massive environmental destruction. This is literally what is happening. Making the world a better place or advancing technology isn't the goal. The technology is just a means to an end of being in everything and making profit.

This isn't alarmism. It's just what's happening. How far it plays out will depend on how willing and for how long people accept it. The traders and bankers may be the first to call it out though, there's already quiet discontent. For once Wall St might be the ally of the people.




That's why I think it's all doomed to fail, the snake is eating it's tail. All the jobs that will be lost due to automation, and the increasing prices of everything to attempt to erase the debts will destroy the one thing capitalism is built around...consumption. If people can't afford to buy things anymore the whole house of cards collapses. That's what the bankers and Wall St see coming. So not for altruistic reasons they will be the ally of the people.

Of course the utopian idea of us collecting UBI while the robots do all the work for us is nice, but I don't think it's realistic for multiple reasons.

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Re: The obvious problem with AI [Re: nuds] * 1
    #29631269 -

nuds said:
Imagine telling humans 100 years ago what an atomic bomb is, what it could do. What nuclear energy is capable of. Or rockets.


The nuclear chain reaction idea was conceived in 1933 (by scientists including Leó Szilárd and Enrico Fermi, after initial work by Fermi and others on neutron-induced reactions).

Rockets are centuries old.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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