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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts *DELETED* [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29316822 -

Post deleted by chris77

Reason for deletion: .


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the observer is the observed
            j. krishnamurti


>The Hitchhiker‘s Guide to the Shroomery<

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: chris77] * 2
    #29320507 -

Has anyone tested a single extraction using a total water volume that equals the triple extraction water volume?

I was thinking about when I used to homebrew with grain, during the mash phase I would boil the grain in a large container that had a high temp pump recirculating the water. now my thought was making a smaller version, say 5-10L that holds the mushroom biomass, bring to temp ( 90c?) and hold that temp, then  recirculate the water through the biomass for 45-60 min? My thought was a self contained loop that you could hit start on and wait instead of the current 3 extraction process.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: stasis]
    #29320747 -

Scientific papers on extraction?  I know of some on synthesis of psilocybin. But there are other relevant active alkaloyds (psilocin, etc).

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: stasis] * 2
    #29346278 -

Late response, but I don't know of anyone testing high solution volume recirculating for extraction. It could be interesting. The only thing I would watch out for is the length of time. I have seen a study that found that soaks of longer than 15 minutes led to reduced final amounts of extracted actives. Only saw one study and have not confirmed it myself, but something to watch out for.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 5
    #29346311 -

New stuff:
I ran a few tests that confirmed something that I saw before but doubted. So I wanted to confirm before sharing. I finally got around to testing again and the results held up so here it is.

The extractions of actives in the teas does NOT result in a higher concentration of actives by weight in the final dried tea. It does become a little more concentrated by volume, however. Clear as mud? Let me try again.

I took 82 grams of dried ochraceocentra and potency tested a highly homogenized sample. The result was 20.48mg/g for a calculated total actives of 1,679.36 mg of actives. Then I made a tea using no acid and triple decoction which should yield approximately 90% of the actives into the tea, per prior testing. I dehydrated that tea down to dry crystals, as usual. The final weight of those crystals was 84.57 grams. The tested potency of the dried tea was 19.1 mg/g for a total of 1,615.21 mg of actives. So the final weights and total actives were both within 4% of the original material.

As far as potency per volume, I stuffed some of the dried tea into capsules. Normally I can get about 0.5g capsules from dried mushrooms. With the dehydrated tea the same capsules average 0.752 grams for ~50% increase in total weight and potency.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29346994 -

wait...what???:confused:

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29347020 -

Fantastic post Rev! Thank you for sharing.

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but have you done a bioassay comparison of the qualitative/subjective effects of tea/gummies vs dehydrated tea crystals?

Basically, does tea give a more complete/well-rounded experience than dehydrated tea crystals, in the way that a fresh fruit experience is different than a dried fruit experience?

Put another way, is any magic/depth/breadth of the experience lost when converting tea to dehydrated tea?

Thanks buddy!


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MUSHROOMS RULE

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Dala] * 4
    #29347053 -

I hope to answer that this weekend. Of course it will only be one subjective test, but I have 5 capsules of tea crystals packed for a weekend trip-trip. I am hopeful that can find a little time for a bio assay. And to make the test even less useful, I have only tried ochras a couple of times and didn't like them very much. So this test may be totally worthless as a comparison. Maybe it will change my mind about the species, though.

I have tried regular tea and dehydrated tea in gummies and detected no difference. But I don't have much personal experience with fresh, so I may not be best judge.

I suspect that the loss of psilocin in the dehydration process is the main difference between fresh and dried. With fresh there is plenty of psilocin available immediately. Where with dried, most of the available psilocin is lost so the psychoactive effects largely come from psilocybin that has been converted to psilocin in the stomach.

That is all conjecture based what I have read. But I mention it because so far, all of my tea crystals have been made using dried grains and dried mushroom bodies. That means that they have been put through the dehydrator twice; once to dry the shrooms and again to dehydrate the tea. I plan to change that going forward to make all teas with fresh and only dehydrate the tea once. I don't know that it will make any difference in the final product, but it should reduce my power bill and carbon footprint by a bit. :hippie:

Edit: grammar hard


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Edited by ReverendMyc (09/17/25 01:36 PM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29347068 -

Bless you, Rev.

I wish you well this weekend. I bet you're excited! :justcantwait:


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MUSHROOMS RULE

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: len53] * 1
    #29347074 -

len53 said:
wait...what???:confused:


Right? You would think that with all of the depleted dregs that get thrown out the final wight would be significantly less. But I have tested this several times and the results hold up time after time.

Maybe the water is somehow binding into the crystal structure contributing to the additional weight. If so, does that mean that they psilocybin is still vulnerable to oxidation and/or potency loss? I don't know yet. I am keeping the rest of the crystals from this last ochraceocentrata run to keep testing at intervals to determine if it loses potency over time.

Or maybe 48 hours was not sufficient drying time and the crystals need more drying. They seem dry, but not salt or powder dry. More like between hard candy and peanut brittle dry. The flakes are greatly affected by static making them difficult to get into a jar, but turn sticky on contact with skin. If anyone else is actually working with it, I highly recommend using nitrile gloves and wiping them with a laundry dryer sheet occasionally.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29348365 -

Quote:
Or maybe 48 hours was not sufficient drying time and the crystals need more drying. They seem dry, but not salt or powder dry. More like between hard candy and peanut brittle dry. The flakes are greatly affected by static making them difficult to get into a jar, but turn sticky on contact with skin.



Yeah, I've tried making the dehydrated tea crystals too and I don't think it's possible to get it fully dry as water seems to be getting trapped in the sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc. that are in the extract. You can grind it up into a fine powder, and then dry that powder again which helps briefly. However, the big problem is, that the resulting powder/crystals seem to be very hygroscopic. So it's hard to keep it dry. I've seen this happen with aqueous extracts of many other mushrooms too, like Cordyceps. One way to prevent this, is by adding an excipient that helps keep it dry. I've added some magnesium glycerophosphate powder which helped keep the tea crystals flowing much better.

With the excipient idea in mind, I've also experimented with using the mushroom material itself as the excipient with good results. I start with fresh mushrooms, add them to boiling water and then blend them with an immersion blender. Then I reduce everything down on the stove until it is like a thick paste, which I then spread on silicone baking sheets as thinly as possible and put in the dehydrator. It dehydrates quite quickly, and ends up looking quite crystaline. I can grind it up into a very fine powder that so far has not appeared to be hygroscopic and I can fit 800 mg of material in a 00 capsule. Coincidentally, this was with a batch of ochraceocentrata. I like the effects of this process, kicks in quicker, seems to generally be easier on the stomach, but somehow lasts a bit longer too. With this method, I think some of the chitin is being broken down by heat, which makes it easier to digest the mushrooms. The psilocybin and psilocin should also have gotten extracted from the cells, making it potentially more bioavailable. I work in the supplement industry, and this is a method that is often employed for making mushrooms more bioavailable, by heating them in water and then drying it all down again on itself.

All that being said, I don't know if it really beats just drying and encapsulating mushrooms, especially when they get as potent as 20 mg/gram like you found with your Ochraceocentrata. It does seem that with the drying the extract back down onto the mushrooms process, that it somehow captures a bit more of the fresh effects, in the dried powder. It's also nice of course that you can fit more of the mushroom material in the capsule.

I think the way to make the tea extract work better, is to somehow either avoid extracting the sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc by using a solvent like ethanol which is much less efficient at extracting sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc when compared to water. Winterisation could come into play here too. It also appears that if acetone is added to a concentrated water extract and then put in the freezer, that this is a really good way of precipitating out the sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc, which would probably make it much easier to dry down to a much smaller amount of final material that isn't as hygroscopic because I think the hygroscopicity is due to the sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc. I've seen ethanol extracts of Cordyceps mushrooms for example that are not at all hygroscopic, whereas aqueous extracts of Cordyceps are ridiculously hygroscopic. Then again, it would be ideal to just use water...hmmm. Maybe some sort of membrane/resin filtration that can filter out some more of the higher molecular weight compounds from water extracts, like complex carbohydrates, proteins, lipids etc? Or perhaps the easiest way to get good tea crystals that are more stable with less water in it, would maybe be to mix like 5-10% of a simple excipient like tapioca maltodextrin to the concentrated tea, which could speed up dehydration, drive off more moisture and prevent hygroscopicity.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Myco-Chill]
    #29348400 -

Great info, Myco-chill. More things to try. Thanks for sharing.

My goal is to keep the tea kitchen friendly and avoid lab chemicals and special equipment, but several of your suggestions like ethanol and using some of the mushroom or grain body might do the trick without needing a full lab. The magnesium glycerophosphate is also an interesting idea depending on the ratio needed.

The journey never ends.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29351788 -

Yeah, keeping it kitchen friendly would definitely be ideal! Ethanol could do the trick with a winterization step, although then you probably do need a buchner funnel setup to separate the precipitated proteins, carbohydrates etc. I've been curious about getting a small centrifuge where you can load 6 x 50 mL tubes in it, that would probably be the best way to separate out the cold precipitated proteins etc. If I end up getting one and trying it out, I'll give a little update.

The journey indeed never ends, there is a lot left to figure out with extraction processing I think! Maybe fermentation and enzyme treatments could be interesting to explore too in order to get rid of carbohydrates and proteins. Koji assisted fermentation could be cool as it creates chitinase and could break down the cell walls. I recently came across a post by mycosymbiotics.eu, about this, where they were using koji fermentation on chaga biomass in order to break down the cell walls prior to extraction. I think ultrasonic assisted extraction water extraction at room is worth exploring too perhaps.

Thanks for all of the great experiments and data, I've really been enjoying your posts!

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Myco-Chill] * 1
    #29351955 -

Myco-Chill said:
I think the way to make the tea extract work better, is to somehow either avoid extracting the sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc by using a solvent like ethanol which is much less efficient at extracting sugars/proteins/beta-glucans etc when compared to water.



Unfortunately ethanol is also far less efficient at extracting psilocybin.

“Aqueous ethanol solutions are unsuitable for psilocybin extraction (maximum yield 36%) A 90% yield can be attained with 1% acetic acid in methanol.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0021967392802875

”We find that hydrogen bonding between psilocybin and the solvent dominates the solvation process. Considering the thermodynamically preferred tautomer, we find that the solubility in water is greater than all of the studied organic solvents.”https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167732223022857


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👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Icyurmt]
    #29354875 -

I'm not sure it this thread is the right place or if it would fit better in Myceliated grain thrad but.. I have a few jars of myceliated brown rice that I want to process into active Instant Teatm. Should i dry the rice in dehydrator before decoction or can I make the decoction from the "fresh" myceliated grain?

EDIT: Nevermind. I found the answer in gummys thread :crazy:

ReverendMyc said:
I only used dried myceliated grains because it is difficult to be certain that your grains are completely free of contamination once they have sat long enough to produce a good amount of actives. Dehydrating at full heat of 70c(160f) for 24 hours offers good protection from most harmful molds and bacteria.



Edited by oktopus (09/25/25 01:56 AM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: oktopus]
    #29355408 -

Good question, oktopus. I see you found an answer, but I am going to toss in a monkey wrench.

Since making the tea requires higher temperatures than dehydrating and then dehydrating the tea uses the same temperatures as drying the grain, I would feel safe skipping the initial drying. I wouldn't eat the grains fresh, but if you are making Active Instant Teatm anyway, I would trust the boil and dehydration to kill anything harmful.

No harm in drying it first, though. Just more time and electricity.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29384579 -

Another great thread Rev.  As a former academic (STEM but not chem or bio) with 10 or so peer reviewed published papers I will say that your effort in documenting your works will also help your scientific process. 

The writing process especially for technical matter forces you to really think through all the details and as result you will come up with new ideas and hypotheses as well as catch flaws in your logic. 

Im new to the community, so I haven't had a chance to give feedback yet but I am looking forward to contributing at least in the way of constructive feedback in the future.


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Don't Yuk my Yum and I won't Stink your Kink.

Can you quantify the amount of actives in your grow? Help my actives vs trip level analysis.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 4
    #29386836 -

ReverendMyc said:
New stuff:
I ran a few tests that confirmed something that I saw before but doubted. So I wanted to confirm before sharing. I finally got around to testing again and the results held up so here it is.

The extractions of actives in the teas does NOT result in a higher concentration of actives by weight in the final dried tea. It does become a little more concentrated by volume, however. Clear as mud? Let me try again.

I took 82 grams of dried ochraceocentra and potency tested a highly homogenized sample. The result was 20.48mg/g for a calculated total actives of 1,679.36 mg of actives. Then I made a tea using no acid and triple decoction which should yield approximately 90% of the actives into the tea, per prior testing. I dehydrated that tea down to dry crystals, as usual. The final weight of those crystals was 84.57 grams. The tested potency of the dried tea was 19.1 mg/g for a total of 1,615.21 mg of actives. So the final weights and total actives were both within 4% of the original material.

As far as potency per volume, I stuffed some of the dried tea into capsules. Normally I can get about 0.5g capsules from dried mushrooms. With the dehydrated tea the same capsules average 0.752 grams for ~50% increase in total weight and potency.


Finally got around to testing one of these capsules. Whooo-doggie. 1 capsule with about 0.75 grams of dried tea was pretty potent. Took it at 18:30 then had a little dinner. By 1900 I could feel it coming on, by 2000 I was having trouble reading my phone and was walking through pudding. By 2230 it was pretty much over and I was ready for bed.

It is a lot easier to make capsules than gummies. I will probably still do both. Gummies to share with muggles and capsules for those ready for something a little more intense. Still not in love with ochras, though. I think I need to whip up some subtropicalis capsules to compare.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 3
    #29393511 -

stasis said:
Hi Rev,

Do you have any initial ideas/anecdotal thoughts on potency/time for the dehydrated tea? I only recently made some out of dried suptropicalis and have found it to be a fantastic method thats very versatile. I was hoping to use it as the main storage method moving forward if it lasts the test of time.


ReverendMyc said:
I have tests planned. I was hoping that I had a sample that I had accurately measured and logged to do a retest to check for potency. Unfortunately, I have either used what I had in gummies or just combined various batches into a collection jar, so I don't have a good reference base value to retest.

I am going to prepare a batch of the dehydrated tea this week specifically to test. I will test its potency right after prep and then again a few times over the coming months to see how quickly it drops or if it stay roughly the same over time. So I will share some answers to that, but it will take some time for results to come in.


Crystalized Tea over time results.

After 55 days, dehydrated tea shows no loss in potency at all. The dried tea was made specifically for this test and stored in a quart canning jar with regular two piece lid. No vacuum was applied as I usually do. Not even kept in the dark. Just a regular jar with dried tea on a shelf in my lab.



I will continue to test this at various intervals. Most likely on the same days as the 5 year myceliated grain tests. 55 days and one test is not conclusive or anything, but it is a pretty encouraging place to start.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29393713 -

WOW TEA FOR ME !!

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