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MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate * 12
    #28720105 -

Auto-Summary
The post outlines a new substrate method for growing coprophilous species, combining elements from various tek recipes. The basic substrate recipe consists of coir, BRF, vermiculite, and a tea solution. The casing recipe uses a mixture of peat and vermiculite. In-vitro jars are prepared with grey, leakproof lids and sterilized using steam. The jars are loaded with substrate, tamped down, and inoculated with liquid culture. The straw boss recipe is also provided, utilizing straw pellets for an all-in-one tray system. This method aims to minimize contamination by eliminating manure and grain spawn, and by using steam treatments to sterilize the substrate.

I have not grown using these recipes yet, I don't have the space available to do so at the moment; however, the concept is sound and should work as is but may need tweaking.

I had purchased the following spores to run this Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf substrate:

  • Panaeolus Bisporus
  • Pan Cambo var Thailand
  • Pan Cyan var Estero
  • Ps Subtropicalis var Xico (wild)



I'll leave this here for any interested members of the community to play with. I'm aware the following steam treatments were overkill but, I had to do my due diligence. The basic coir recipe should be sufficient but, I think the straw amendment recipe at the bottom of the post will be the better choice.

The substrate as it's currently conceptualized:

The following is a combination of features adapted from Baba Yaga's Manure Water Tek, Mateja's coir/BRF recipe, PF-Tek, V.L's EF-Tek, Violet's In-Vitro Bottle Tek, and Fahtsters Ziploc Tek.




Manure water will be used to hydrate the coir/verm/brf recipe to avoid the requirement for grain spawn and to take advantage of all ingredient's ability to be steamed at atmospheric pressure in the same way we would process PF-Tek jars in a pot.

The intention is to produce a new yet familiar method for fruiting intermediate to advanced coprophilous species using available materials and methods. Utilization of an "all in one" substrate will translate to less time producing sterile media by removing the necessity for spawn while simultaneously avoiding the inevitable disruption/weakening of the colony by breakage during the shaking/spawning phases.

Liquid culture will be the preferred inoculum for this method, with LI being second, and plate culture being last (in-vitro jars only). Inoculate with multispore solution at your own risk, which will be significant unless the cultivator has taken pains to produce axenic spore stock.


Basic Substrate recipe:


  • 2 parts Coir
  • 1 part BRF
  • 1/2 part vermiculite
  • 2.5 parts tea: by volume.

 
1 part = 1 cup, scale up as required. I used lots of water to produce the tea, adjust the ingredients to the amount of substrate being made.

Break up manure into the water, allow to "steep" for 1 hour to create manure "tea", strain with mesh screen, then use to hydrate the CVB substrate. Add the manure tea to the coir/verm first, and stir in the brown rice flour last.

Casing recipe:

  • 50/50: peat/vermiculite
  • Hydrated lime @ .5-1tsp/cup of peat
  • Hydrate to field capacity with tap water.



In-Vitro Jars:

I prefer using the grey, Ball No-Leak lids with 1/4" hole and 29mm .3um synthetic filter disc combo but, polyfill stuffed lids should work just fine. Ball leakproof lids have a little more height than thinner metal lid rings or white plastic lids. The difference in thickness allows for a bit more room to dial gas exchange for both unmodified spawn jar applications and for FAE control of in vitro fruiting jars.


    [1] Load substrate into wide mouth 750ml jars (without shoulders)(or glad rounds/4oz PF jars to top fruit);
    [2] Lightly tamp substrate down to roughly 1.5-2" depth;
    [3] Apply a thin 1/4" casing layer, tamp to level;
    [4] Apply foil caps, steam for 60-90 minutes in a pot with a tight-fitting lid, or use your Presto without
        the jiggle weight (you may sterilize at 15psi for 60 minutes if you prefer, but I wouldn't);
    [5] Inoculate with your choice of liquid culture, liquid inoculant, or agar wedge once cooled;
    [6] Colonize on a shelf;
    [7] Back lids off to increase airflow to fruit;

Utilize 6500k light throughout. The resulting fruits will produce sterile fruits and spores for cloning and printing. Feel free to fill standard PF tek jars to top fruit in your choice of fruiting chamber.



These jars have been sitting since May 8th, with no sign of molds.



Bags:

Bags will be run using sufficient sub to be shaped into place in your preferred size of tray, much like what Faht does with Ziplocs.

    [1] Before being fit into a tray the bagged steam pasteurized/sterilized sub will be inoculated with LC,
        sealed, and then thoroughly mixed;
    [2] Bags will then be formed into trays, leveled at 1.5-2" depth, then allowed to colonize;
    [3] Once fully colonized the bags will be cut open to case, re-seal bags, and then allowed to colonize and
        fruit in-vitro.



    Straw Boss recipe:




    I've tested these straw pellets in the past, they're not dense like other types of pelletized straw, sort of a looser compression.



    This material hydrates to a similar consistency as expanded hardwood fuel pellets and can be hydrated in the same manner. Previous tests were to hydrate by Lipa tek, seal with an impulse sealer,  then leave without inoculation on the shelf for 1 month to test for mold. SB pellets can be Lipa tek'd successfully so, pasteurization/steaming with MCVB will be no problem.

    This is where the reader may ask: "Why not just use the manure".

    Manure is "shitty" to work with, if it's not handled correctly it becomes an easy target for molds due to trace nitrogen combined with heavy bioload and complex structure. Coir, vermiculite, BRF, and straw pellets are far less susceptible to mold and bacterial blooms due to the manufacturing process that produces them. Using manure tea to hydrate the above materials produces a pseudo-manure substrate with beneficial microbes but without the added nitrogen in the biomass; The integral supplementation also removes the necessity for spawn or colony breakage.

    Cereal grain spawn is subject to the same susceptibility to contaminations as manure because both substrates are nutritious organic materials with heavy bioloads and complex substrate structures.
    By eliminating grain spawn, manure, and the requirement to weaken the sensitive colony through multiple rounds of breakage and recovery, both during the shake, and at spawning, the substrate will be overall less susceptible to contamination due to limited exposure to contaminant biolad, and breakage.
    The manure tea introduces beneficial microbes while limiting places for pathogenic bacteria or molds to hide during steam exposure, making the substrate far less likely to contaminate.



    Substrate recipe with added straw:


  • 1 parts Coir
  • 1 part Straw pellets
  • 1 part BRF
  • 1/2 part vermiculite
  • 2.5 parts tea: by volume (to be adjusted).

1 part is equal to 1 cup. Scale up the recipe as required.

The above coprophilous species do not require excessive carbohydrate supplementation, so dial as necessary, the above quantities of brown rice flour should be more than sufficient; if anything you may need to dial it back rather than add more.



All-in-One Trays:


Fill with the above substrate to 1.5-2" depth, tamp/level, add peat casing 1/4"; steam, inoculate.



Gasketed PP5 container, flat lid for fixing hardware. I drilled 3 x 1/4" holes, 1 on each end for .2um filter stickers, one in the middle for a 3/16 nylon female Luer fitting:



A bulkhead luer adapter would probably be a better choice but I don't have any lying around. This will make the all-in-one (AIO) tray a closed system. I just need to get some male luer caps to close up the adapter:



Inoculating with LC from the center ensures that growth radiates outward from the middle. When I get around to trying this out I'll be drawing from a DIY bioreactor closed system with a check valve:



No spawn, no breakage, no shaking, no recovery. AIO pan tray can be steamed in a pot without sterilizing anything other than agar, LC, and syringe. Fruit in an appropriate chamber once finished colonizing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28721148 -

TTBVI.  Coir, jiffy mix, dried oat grass clippings, cactus soil (containing manure). PC'd for 2 hours at psi, knocked up with agar wedges.  This was before I read this thread.  It's been shaken a couple times too.  In hindsight, had I read your post first, I would have gotten clean liquid culture tek down first. I'd probably try not shaking too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: NattyOrNice] * 1
    #28721344 -

I did something similar. But I used composted manure, that I hydrated with oat boil water, added verm, and sterilized. Just spawned my first two totes with them


--------------------
Thank your postal workers when you see them. None of this would be possible without them.

Necessity is the mother of invention

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: NattyOrNice] * 1
    #28721392 -

NattyOrNice said:
(containing manure). PC'd for 2 hours at psi.



I'd wager that serilization for 2 hours likely renders the use of manure moot, as you've destroyed both beneficial and pathogenic organisms without the possibility of bounce back. Manure at that point is just substrate with straw in it, and a small amount of niteogen which makes it a risk for mold infection.

EniQma said:
I used composted manure, that I hydrated with oat boil water, added verm, and sterilized. Just spawned my first two totes with them



I'd be wary of grain soak water, and sterilized manure containing nitrogen.

Good luck:popcorn:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28721420 -

Those straw pellets look really sexy. I'm using the bedding ones and they turn out pretty mushy, I usually end up prehydrating them to break them up, and using that water to hydrate everything else.

Anyway, if anyone has a source on those boss pellets here in the US I'd love to know!


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: tree frog]
    #28721426 -

tree frog said:
if anyone has a source on those boss pellets here in the US I'd love to know!



I got mine from Peavey Mart, perhaps they'll carry it in the US? Here's the site, perhaps you'll be able to track down a vendor:

https://thestrawboss.ca/product/straw-boss-straw-pellets/

Those pellets are pretty nice to work with, they're great for oysters and probably a decent substitute for coir.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28722452 -

Nice, I'll try this out soon

:threadmonitor:

Edited by bunsie (04/01/24 03:30 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: bunsie]
    #28723807 -

Okay I'm in.  I have TTBVI, so the success of this experiment should give hope with other species, specifically the ones you listed.  If it works for mine, good chance it could work for yours!  Quick question though....  I fruit in filter patch bags, so instead of knocking up a jar of grains, the plan is to basically make an AIO bag right? 
Hydrate straw pellets with manure tea, mix with brf, verm, coir?  And then we knock up the bag with LC, let it colonize everything fully, no shake nothing, and then case it and fruit it?  Just pasteurizing the whole mix in the bag before innoculating?  If that's it then it sounds really feasible.  How would it affect the overall time from Nock to harvest?    Or would it be better to make like 4-5 half pint jars of the mix, and pop them out like cakes and bury them in coir in preferred FC, kinda like PF tek?  Instead of SGFC?  Maybe that would speed things along .. 

This was a similar recipe/mix that colonized insanely fast, like 5 days?  And I did just that, popped it out like a cake and buried it in coir.

Thoughts??










Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: NattyOrNice]
    #28723928 -

:threadmonitor:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: NattyOrNice]
    #28724198 -

Play with the substrate as you see fit, however, fill the little pf jars as per normal, then top fruit.
As far as the filter bags go, follow the directions listed in the OP. The OP was designed for in-vitro to reduce breakage and exposure but the substrate can be used in other ways, keep in mind that you don't want to expose uncolonized nutrient-rich material to the environment prematurely or you'll end up with mold.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28724325 -

I've been toying with the idea of using plastic pie carriers instead of trays. The snap-on lids can carry 4 x filters at roughly 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions.



These kinds of trays will allow for the above MCVB(S) substrate to be steamed with a casing layer without exposing it to the environment, like a giant PF cake but thinner, to accommodate pans' desire for thinner substrate depth. To be fruited in a Martha or appropriate fruiting chamber.

I like the shape as they will fit/stack nicely in a stainless pot or Presto. AIO trays aren't a thing yet, as far as I know, so this would be an excellent addition to the chest of tools if it works out.

My reasoning:

None of the ingredients need to be truly sterile, I just need to keep mold from entering over 5-7 days it takes pans to colonize, which I'm guessing is doable. Once colonized it's moot. The snap lid should function enough like a swan neck, these pie containers usually have a decently tight seal to keep pies fresh. A PC cycle would likely foul up the seal, but I'm hoping straight up atmospheric steam will be fine....maybe. It will take some playing with;

However, I'm on the hunt for pie carriers or similar 10-12" round trays with better lids; If I do have to settle for snap-on, I'll grap the ones with protruding lift tabs to prevent fingers from getting too close to the edge of the lid while opening. I may not be able to culture or grow atm, but I can definitely test containers and substrate combinations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 3
    #28724558 -

Ok, so I found a couple of options while I was out grabbing a coffee.

Option 1:



This was a nice size but a little pricey.

Option 2:



I went with this option, cheaper, PP5, flat lid for fixing hardware. I drilled 3 x 1/4" holes, 1 on each end for .2um filter stickers, one in the middle for a 3/16 nylon female Luer fitting:



A bulkhead luer adapter would probably be a better choice but I don't have any lying around. This will make the all-in-one (AIO) tray a closed system. I just need to get some male luer caps to close up the adapter:



Inoculating with LC from the center ensures that growth radiates outward from the middle.

When I get around to trying this out I'll be drawing from a DIY bioreactor closed system with a check valve:



No spawn, no breakage, no shaking, no recovery. AIO pan tray can be steamed in a pot without sterilizing anything other than agar, LC, and syringe.

....but, how well does it work? 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28724570 -

:threadmonitor:

Great idea, stored for future use :dancer:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Loopshroom]
    #28724778 -

:thisisgonnabegood:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28725326 -

Any reason microwave safe pp5 take out containers wouldn't work other than the seal?

Cling wrap is microwave safe. I think it could seal these four and ten cup trays I've been using, at least for pasteurization.  Maybe not sterilization though.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: tree frog]
    #28725394 -

Only one way to find out. Give it a whirl, no harm in trying.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28725414 -

I plan too!  I saw you mention those pie trays in another thread awhile back and have been thinking about AIO trays ever since :lol:

Need to order some female leur locks and small filter discs first.  Will probably be a month and a half before I get serious about it (going on vacation the beginning of May, so have to plot a course around that).  But I have bisporus LCs going, and I am planning to start more very soon.

Been using AIO bags and jars, so already a fan of going straight to substrate with Pans especially.  Not having to shake or breakup the substrate for spawning, I think would be really nice.  And I could test a lot of different cultures quickly, I think.

edit:  I didn't track down those straw pellets.  The nearest store that carries them is 300 miles away.  I did order some hemp straw that I've seen people grow pans with before.  And plan to use that instead of coir.  I also have corn cob pellets available in my area and those I've seen people grow cubes on.  And there are a number of studies that used it instead of straw or wood for oysters.  So I'll try them too.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (04/04/24 08:49 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: tree frog]
    #28725423 -

tree frog said:
I saw you mention those pie trays in another thread awhile back and have been thinking about AIO trays ever since :lol:



This topic has been on my mind for years, it was about time that I wrote something down to get the ball rolling.

tree frog said:
Need to order some female leur locks and small filter discs first.



Don't forget to get male luer caps to plug the adapter, and female luer syringe caps while you're at it or you'll have some inconvenient holes to plug :lol:

Quote:
tree frog said:

Been using AIO bags and jars, so already a fan of going straight to substrate with Pans especially.  Not having to shake or break up the substrate for spawning, I think would be really nice.  And I could test a lot of different cultures quickly, I think.



Absolutely, might as well take advantage of the quick colonization and fruiting times for pans. I truly believe that PF-tek was well ahead of its time and can be adapted to fit just about any scenario with enough thought/planning. Integral supplementation, colony integrity, and the ability to treat with minimal energy/effort or equipment are excellent features that shouldn't be simply relegated to the new grower pile.

Don't forget to keep me updated here :rockon:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28725434 -

I have leur caps already, but I'm not sure if they're right.  They plug my syringes and I use them on my josex poke syringes with water prior to sterilization.

I ordered female to female leur adapters.  Those should work right?  Since my caps will fit my syringes and my syringe should fit both sides of the adapter?


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (04/04/24 09:18 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: MCVB (Manure/Coir/Verm/Brf) Substrate [Re: tree frog]
    #28725443 -

The luer portion on the tip of your syringe is male:



So any adapter you attach to will need to be female:



The above is a 3/16 female luer-to-barb adapter. The bottom portion is a barb to attach medical tubing for extraction, you'd be better off getting a 3/16 F luer to bulkhead, which is essentially a threaded bottom portion with a nut. 3/16 is the appropriate size to allow LC to flow through, IMO.

The luer-to-barb fitting is fine, it just requires gasket maker to seal.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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