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InvisibleYuggoth
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Vacuum sealer discussion thread * 1
    #28489392 - 10/01/23 08:38 PM (3 months, 25 days ago)

I started this thread to give the few of us who are interested in using vacuum sealers a place to talk about our findings.

I was inspired to do this when the other day @Nonagon posted in the Confessional that he was surprised to find some vacuum sealed and cracker-dry dehydrated fruit had apparently picked up some water and turned soft. He was using regular FoodSaver style bags and noticed that a ~28g bag picked up about 2g water over 6 months.

Having been using 3 mil vacuum bags myself, for all kinds of culinary things, I was pretty surprised and took a look at my stuff. I had a few bags of various sizes packed on about September 1, and now, about October 1, this is what I noticed...

A medium sized bag with about 30 g of fruit still seemed to be cracker-dry.

A small bag with about 2g dried fruit now contained fruit that was absolutely no longer cracker-dry. Stems were pliable enough to bend without breaking.



Both bags were packed at 75% vacuum, so there was still plenty of air in there. The bags were snug, but I did not want to crush the fruit into dust. In neither case did I weigh the dry fruit very carefully so I cannot determine what weight of water may have been picked up.

But, the bottom line is, water ingress is happening. In a bigger bag with more fruit, it's apparently just going to take longer to become apparent. I was really surprised that 2 g of fruit in a small bag got rubbery in 1 month.

I guess I never noticed this in other culinary vac bag applications because I was not packing something as dry as cracker-dry mushrooms. Even things like spices and ground coffee have some residual moisture.

I bought some mylar bags, and I am going to re-dry my fruit and pack them in better bags, plus desiccant. I will also bag up some tests in both mylar and normal polyethylene-nylon bags, and track weight changes over the coming weeks and months.


--------------------
We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo


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OfflineBajazly
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28489397 - 10/01/23 08:43 PM (3 months, 25 days ago)

I've used jars with the vac seal and they seem to be doing well. Some have been stored for over 10 months now.


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InvisibleBenson
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Bajazly]
    #28489404 - 10/01/23 08:54 PM (3 months, 25 days ago)

Just want to say I've noticed this too. I toss in a desiccant pack in before I vac seal them. I give them out pretty quickly so I don't know how long they stay cracker dry but I assume it helps. Like bajazly said jars keep them perfect forever but obviously that's economical. Looking forward to any updates you have with mylar.

Wonder how the big boys store weight long term?


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OfflineOldManRiver
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28489453 - 10/01/23 09:36 PM (3 months, 25 days ago)

i have used both a FoodSealer and a chamber vac sealer, (LEM from Costco) and have never noticed fruits getting soft.  I have kept some for easily 6 months, and the fruits are hard as rocks. 

Leaving air in may be the culprit. Was it humid when you packed them?  3 mil is also pretty thin, maybe edges of the fruits poked through? You would have seen the loss of the vacuum if that happened.  I'm using 4 mil bags in the chamber vac with good results.


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InvisibleBenson
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: OldManRiver]
    #28489464 - 10/01/23 09:48 PM (3 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

OldManRiver said:
i have used both a FoodSealer and a chamber vac sealer, (LEM from Costco) and have never noticed fruits getting soft.  I have kept some for easily 6 months, and the fruits are hard as rocks. 

Leaving air in may be the culprit. Was it humid when you packed them?  3 mil is also pretty thin, maybe edges of the fruits poked through? You would have seen the loss of the vacuum if that happened.  I'm using 4 mil bags in the chamber vac with good results.




Like OP mentioned I don't suck all the air out, I don't want to pulverize the fruit but I get it 90% of the way there. Maybe I'll try a thicker bag


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InvisibleYuggoth
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Benson] * 1
    #28489990 - 10/02/23 01:20 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

OldManRiver said:
i have used both a FoodSealer and a chamber vac sealer, (LEM from Costco) and have never noticed fruits getting soft.  I have kept some for easily 6 months, and the fruits are hard as rocks. 

Leaving air in may be the culprit. Was it humid when you packed them?  3 mil is also pretty thin, maybe edges of the fruits poked through? You would have seen the loss of the vacuum if that happened.  I'm using 4 mil bags in the chamber vac with good results.




Humidity was probably somewhere in the 40-60% range when I packed. With a small (though not zero) amount of air in the bag I would be surprised if there was enough water in there to effect the change.

Well, we can probably calculate how much water was in there...



OK with worst-case RH for and a typical temp for packing day a month ago, and guessing the air volume in the sealed bag is 50 mL ... which is probably high ... there should be 0.00065 mL of water in the air in the bag. That seems negligible.

@Nonagon did post that he determined his bags gained weight though, so even if the water vapor inside the bag upon sealing is a factor ... Water is getting in, too.

Since I saw a 2 gram bag go soft at 1 month (maybe before, can't say) and a 30 g bag of the same age still seemed OK, I figure the outcome has to do with the amount of dry fruit, the surface area of the bag, and the permeability of the bag. If the small bag went bad then I would expect the bigger bag to go bad eventually.

My 3 mil bags definitely had a good seal, I have used over a thousand of them over the years and know them well. The dry fruit would probably not be strong enough to puncture a 3 mil bag at full squeeze, that takes something like a bone or shrimp shell... And at 75% vacuum, the bags were merely snug.

It's good to hear your 4 mil bags seem to be working. When you have cracked a 6 month bag open... How much fruit was in there? And did you add a desiccant pack?


Quote:

Benson said:
Wonder how the big boys store weight long term?




I wondered about that too. In a documentary I saw the inside of a dispensary and it just looked like big plastic jars.

I started testing mylar bags... Hade to figure out the right seal settings. These 100% vacuum tests (dry popcorn) held seal overnight which is a good sigh, but not a guarantee. I guess I will keep a tightly packed test bag alongside any more loosely packed mushroom bags, since the tight pack makes it easy to see if the seal was actually poor. 



--------------------
We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo


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OfflineKinoko314
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28490043 - 10/02/23 02:40 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Did the mylar bags work okay with a foodsaver, or what did you use?


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OfflineNonagon
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Kinoko314] * 1
    #28490075 - 10/02/23 03:25 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Thanks for starting the thread :thumbup:

Yeah, so as stated in the OP - I dried some average sized fruits for 24hrs/until hard and snappy, and weighed out 28g servings.

I don’t personally care about the crush factor and always let my food saver pull until it’s satisfied. It automatically seals with as little remaining air as the machine can manage. All bags were still sealed/compressed when I opened one recently.

Threw it on the scale to find what was once dry and snappy at 28.0 is now kind of soft at 30-31g. This seemed odd so I checked more, and found them all to be in that range. FWIW, I know my scale was checked with the calibration weight at the time, and has also never been “off” :shrug:

Even in the most humid conditions an average house reaches, there’s no way there is multiple millilitres worth of water in the tiny amount of air left after vac sealing - there HAS to be some minor (and very consistent) moisture transmission happening through the bag itself.

The part that baffles me is that they remain compressed and seemingly air-tight(??) during the 6 months or so that they were stored. My understanding was that a large enough pore size (or imperfect seal) to allow moisture transmission would also allow air movement, also making it unable to hold a vacuumed seal long term.

Hopefully someone smarter than me can help explain :lol:

For the time being, I’ve dehydrated them again and double vac-bagged them. We’ll see what happens. Curious if significant potency was lost from these poor storage conditions.


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OfflineKinoko314
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Nonagon] * 1
    #28490156 - 10/02/23 05:33 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Water ingress without air ingress was confusing to me as well.  So I turned to a friend who occasionally likes to hallucinate too, ChatGPT.  Let's hope he's sober.

Quote:

ChatGPT said:
You're correct that the molecular size of water molecules is larger than oxygen (O2) or nitrogen (N2) molecules. In a general sense, the permeability of a material to a specific substance is influenced by various factors, including molecular size, structure, chemical interactions, temperature, pressure, and the nature of the material itself.

In typical scenarios, many plastics, including those used for vacuum-sealed bags, have relatively low permeability to gases like oxygen and nitrogen due to their molecular structure and the close packing of polymer chains. However, water vapor molecules, while larger than individual oxygen or nitrogen molecules, can still permeate through plastics more easily than these smaller gas molecules under certain conditions.

Water vapor permeability can be influenced by the molecular structure of the plastic, humidity levels, temperature, and pressure. Over time, especially in conditions where there's a significant difference in water vapor concentration or pressure between the inside and outside of the bag, water vapor can slowly diffuse through the plastic.

Keep in mind that the permeation of water vapor through plastics is typically a slow process and depends on several factors. High-quality vacuum-sealed bags are designed to minimize this permeation and maintain the integrity of the seal for a reasonable duration, providing effective protection against both air and moisture. However, complete impermeability to water vapor is difficult to achieve in practice over extended periods.

For critical applications that require true waterproofing, specialized impermeable materials or containers designed explicitly for such purposes would be more appropriate.




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InvisibleBenson
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Kinoko314]
    #28490211 - 10/02/23 06:38 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Right on man keep us updated! :takingnotes:

Edit: didn't even see ol GPT's response there. Very good to know. Maybe if I double seal them... :lol:


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Edited by Benson (10/02/23 07:12 PM)


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InvisibleNoChill
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Benson]
    #28490228 - 10/02/23 07:08 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

I've been messing around a little with inert gases (argon, nitrogen, etc.) used in wine preservation for displacing the air in my long-term storage jars.

What if you made up a vac-seal bag, put the fruits in it, sprayed some gas in the bag, then vac-sealed it, but not to full vacuum. Like leave the tiniest pillow/not decompressing the bag all the way.

I'm thinking, based on the response from ChatGPT, the pressure differential might contribute to the bag taking on water vapor.

If the bag is not fully decompressed, it shouldn't have a pressure diff. with the rest of the room. The gas left inside is inert and (assuming) doesn't contain much water vapor, if any. This may be incorrect due to the pressurized canister the wine-saver gasses come in. It might condense some water from the air on the way out.

Of course, the food saver/sealer would have to be mounted so you could feed an upright bag into it, since the gases would pour out if you tilted it.

-NC


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InvisibleYuggoth
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: NoChill]
    #28490356 - 10/02/23 09:02 PM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kinoko314 said:
Did the mylar bags work okay with a foodsaver, or what did you use?




I have a beastly chamber vac sealer. It's like this, without the printer. For a food nerd it's epic kitchen gear.

I am still evaluating the mylar bag seal quality. It takes some time to see if you have a good seal or if it's leaky, but I repacked everything (with desiccant packs) and noted the bag weight. I'll keep an eye on them.

They DO sell rolls of mylar bag material for FoodSaver style machines, so anyone ought to be able to get in on the mylar game.

Quote:

NoChill said:
I've been messing around a little with inert gases (argon, nitrogen, etc.) used in wine preservation for displacing the air in my long-term storage jars.




That's a good idea. It's actually called "pillow pack" when you do it with a chamber sealer... you pump out the air, replace it with inert gas, then seal. My sealer can theoretically do it if I buy the gas cylinder and regulator. It's one of the reasons I chose this model, though now 10 years after I bought it I still haven't bought those accessories, hahah. Your idea of doing it manually with an edge sealer ain't bad, that might work. You would have to use a lot of gas to make sure you had a good flush, though. Getting an argon bottle from a welding store would be a lot cheaper in the long run than using those little wine bottle canisters.

But, whatever kind of gas is in the vacuum bag or jar won't change how water may diffuse into that volume, though. If the barrier is water permeable, water will seek equilibrium.


--------------------
We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo


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OnlineScrewup
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Yuggoth] * 1
    #28490521 - 10/03/23 01:03 AM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Huehue vacuum sealer go brrrr


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OfflineTiamo
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Screwup]
    #28490527 - 10/03/23 01:25 AM (3 months, 24 days ago)

Plastic vacuum bags are supposed to keep dry goods good for 6-12 months. As stated the plastic is semi permeable and thus will let in moisture over time. Mylar can keep dry foodstuffs good for up to 20-30 years. Include an oxygen absorber and a desiccant pack for best results, even when vacuum sealing. These will take care of remaining oxygen (note: oxygen does not equal air) and moisture. There will always be some, even with the best dehydrator and vacuum machine.

Be sure to label the bags with when they were made.

People often think they need an (expensive) vacuum chamber vacuum sealer to vacuum seal mylar bags, but Foodsaver type vacuum sealers can also be used to vacuum seal mylar in the following way:



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Edited by Tiamo (10/03/23 02:51 AM)


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OfflineMcGrimm
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Tiamo]
    #28491505 - 10/03/23 09:58 PM (3 months, 23 days ago)

:havesomescience:

soooo. Im very interested in the equilibrium state that is sought out by the water/moisture in the air and bag! And/Or the Pressure Differential Hypothesis with the plastic...
Like I guess I get it, but why the "still vacuum sealed" but it STILL gets moisture.

Also...ChatGPT while right sort of is not intelligence, wisdom, and experience....yet


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InvisibleYuggoth
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: McGrimm] * 2
    #28491573 - 10/03/23 11:50 PM (3 months, 23 days ago)

I found some more info on moisture barriers in vacuum bags.

https://www.gndzero.com/techdocs/Shielding/Sheilding%20Bags/Moisture_barrier_bags.pdf

This PDF is worth a look but this is the gist.

Moisture Vapor Transmission Rate (MVTR or WVTR) is the rate that water vapor passes through a specific area of barrier material. As MVTR is reduced, dry storage time is increased and desiccant loading is reduced. MVTR is measured in grams of water vapor, per 100 square inches of barrier, per 24 hours (g/100in2/24hrs).

It goes on to talk about a couple of specific kinds of bags and it lists the MVTR for them. To calculate how much water's gonna get into your bag, you do need to know the total bag surface area. It looks like a typical ~4 mil aluminized polyester bag has MVTR of .02 g/100 in2/24 hrs. So say you had a 10x10 bag, that's 200 square inches, meaning every day .04 g of water could get inside. A 7 mil poly/nylon/foil bag has MVTR of 0.005, much better. But the tests are done at 100% RH though, the worst case scenario.

This Amazon mylar vac bag seller actually lists their MVTR, I was surprised.

https://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Compatible-SteelPak-Textured-Embossed/dp/B07Q4RBT32

But, the value is 0.16 g/100 in2/24 hrs which doesn't seem great when I see the 0.02 value for a 4 mil aluminized polyester bag in the PDF above.

Here's another mylar bag spec from a packaging company. Their 4.3 mil bags list < 0.0005 g/100 in2/24 hrs which is the best value I have seen. (there are 7 mil bags which are surely better but I am not sure a home machine can seal them.)

https://www.impakcorporation.com/PAKVF4

This 3.5 mil bag from the same guys is only 0.05 g/100 in2/24 hrs. Way better than what I found on Amazon but still 100x worse than the 4 mil product, wow.

https://www.impakcorporation.com/PAKVF3.5M


So what about plastic bags? We learned here the hard way they suck for keeping things bone dry, but what are the numbers?

I found a listing for a 3 mil poly bag which listed rating of 0.32, making that Amazon mylar bag just above only twice as good, which doesn't seem great.

This packing company PDF has a chart of typical WVTR for polyethylene films. It looks like a 4 mil poly bag is about a 25% better moisture barrier.



How does humidity factor in? I cannot find a chart for polyethylene WVTR vs RH, but this chart has polypropylene (BOPP). Google says they are similar water barriers but I can't find numbers.



You can see that WVTR does increase with increasing RH but it's pretty linear

What does it mean?!

I can't really relate these numbers to real-world performance yet. But it is clear that a good bag maker will have a WVTR rating available and it's a number that is important to us because it can vary by ten or a hundred times between similar looking bags. And with the water permeability being linear with bag surface area, the best practice will be filling a bag as full as possible to minimize exterior surface area per gram of product.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.


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We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo


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OfflineTiamo
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28491581 - 10/04/23 12:07 AM (3 months, 23 days ago)

We could probably offset the moisture creeping in by using desiccant and keeping the bag in a dry environment. I am not sure how the WVTR would scale if you kept the bags in 50% RH? I assume it is not linear.


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If you have used a Miraculix Psilocybin QTest, could you please share your results?

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OfflineWeavieWonder
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Tiamo] * 2
    #28491800 - 10/04/23 07:35 AM (3 months, 23 days ago)

I noticed a significant loss in potency after eight months or so from vacuum-sealed mushrooms. Regular food saver bags with no desiccant or oxygen scrubbers.:mad: I double bag so the mushrooms don't poke holes.

It would be nice to get AT LEAST a year before potency starts declining. This time around I'm entombing everything into little chocolates. Chocolates get wrapped in foil, then into plastic zip-locks, then stored in a small cooler in the freezer. This method is a lot more work and money than just throwing them into a bag, but makes consumption easy and delicious. Hopefully this will do the trick. Will report back next year!:lol: 



First test batch. Not the prettiest, but got the kinks ironed out and later batches are turning out sexy. The payload is in the center (1g), so it should be completely closed off from the world (Unless chocolate is semi permeable too!).


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OfflineBustaboo
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: WeavieWonder]
    #28491814 - 10/04/23 07:49 AM (3 months, 23 days ago)

Could you weigh a paper towel or napkin, vacuum seal it, and submerge it in water for faster testing of permeability or leaks?


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InvisibleYuggoth
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Re: Vacuum sealer discussion thread [Re: Bustaboo]
    #28492234 - 10/04/23 05:18 PM (3 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Tiamo said:
We could probably offset the moisture creeping in by using desiccant and keeping the bag in a dry environment. I am not sure how the WVTR would scale if you kept the bags in 50% RH? I assume it is not linear.




I'm sure desiccant will help but I don't know how to quantify it.

The one chart I found for a similar kind of plastic suggested that WVTR is roughly linear with RH, but I haven't found exactly the right data for the bags we use. Some manufacturer probably posted it if I can find it...

Quote:

WeavieWonder said:
I noticed a significant loss in potency after eight months or so from vacuum-sealed mushrooms. Regular food saver bags with no desiccant or oxygen scrubbers.:mad: I double bag so the mushrooms don't poke holes.




That is great info, thanks for sharing.

Quote:

Bustaboo said:
Could you weigh a paper towel or napkin, vacuum seal it, and submerge it in water for faster testing of permeability or leaks?




Because the way paper absorbs water from the air is different than dried mushrooms, I don't know that would be a good test. But you could probably do tests with home dehydrated grocery store mushrooms.

I'm increasingly thinking that vacuum sealing isn't really that important. It's not the vacuum we need... Jars seem to work great. It's the moisture and oxygen barrier that matters. The next thing I try will be using my 5 mil mylar bags with my impulse sealer.


--------------------
We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo


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