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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Swami]
    #2839151 -

Quote:
It all depends on what comparisons are being made. I believe that neither action will/did make our country safer.




that's a matter of opinion, I don't think we ever will be safe. With an open society like we have there's always that chance. It's too bad there are people who will blame the ones opposing homocide bombers and other terrorist cowards instead they feel the need to get into bed with terrorists. This is what I don't understand.

Quote:
I believe both (not a conspiracy theory) are being manipulated to make money for a few.




that's a conspiracy because you can't prove it. Sure some people are getting rich but I doubt this was the primary reason. ( i'm not saying I support the act of getting rich off of the war, it's just what happens)

Quote:
Of course there are many differences as well, but I believe that neither conflict was done for national security nor for the moralistic reasons presented.




the reasons were different, not even close. As for national security? who knows?. I believe the reason we went in was because Iraq violated 1441 (that cannot be denied). WMD's were the biggy which turned out to be a bust and the moral reasons came after. I see absolutly no comparison to Vietnam.

Quote:
Perhaps it is because, while Amercian as a people are genuine, our leaders are frequently not.




I agree.

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What positive thing did we accomplish in Somalia for the lives and cost?




we would of accomplished plenty if the soldiers were properly equipped. Who sends in soldiers with no armor? oh yeah, Clinton.

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Why did we support Saddam when we knew he was killing hundreds of thousands of Kurds 20 years ago?




You'll get no argument from me, where was the UN? What about Europe or the rest of the world for that matter? Why is it OUR responsibility? (devil's advocat)

Quote:
The world does not trust our inconsistent standards is the real problem.




The "World" sits on there asses while complaining that WE aren't doing enough or too much. With the exception of some of our KEY allies.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (06/29/04 11:17 AM)

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Phred]
    #2839351 -

Quote:
The interim Iraq government is in charge of governing Iraq now, not the CPA.



Then explain the supremacy of Bremer's 97 edicts...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8665-2004Jun26.html?referrer=email

Quote:
U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer has issued a raft of edicts revising Iraq's legal code and has appointed at least two dozen Iraqis to government jobs with multi-year terms in an attempt to promote his concepts of governance long after the planned handover of political authority on Wednesday.

Some of the orders signed by Bremer, which will remain in effect unless overturned by Iraq's interim government, restrict the power of the interim government and impose U.S.-crafted rules for the country's democratic transition. Among the most controversial orders is the enactment of an elections law that gives a seven-member commission the power to disqualify political parties and any of the candidates they support.

The effect of other regulations could last much longer. Bremer has ordered that the national security adviser and the national intelligence chief chosen by the interim prime minister he selected, Ayad Allawi, be given five-year terms, imposing Allawi's choices on the elected government that is to take over next year.

Bremer also has appointed Iraqis handpicked by his aides to influential positions in the interim government. He has installed inspectors-general for five-year terms in every ministry. He has formed and filled commissions to regulate communications, public broadcasting and securities markets. He named a public-integrity commissioner who will have the power to refer corrupt government officials for prosecution.

Some Iraqi officials condemn Bremer's edicts and appointments as an effort to exert U.S. control over the country after the transfer of political authority. "They have established a system to meddle in our affairs," said Mahmoud Othman, a member of the Governing Council, a recently dissolved body that advised Bremer for the past year. "Iraqis should decide many of these issues."

Bremer has defended his issuance of many of the orders as necessary to implement democratic reforms and update Iraq's out-of-date legal code. He said he regarded the installation of inspectors-general in ministries, the creation of independent commissions and the changes to Iraqi law as important steps to fight corruption and cronyism, which in turn would help the formation of democratic institutions.

"You set up these things and they begin to develop a certain life and momentum on their own -- and it's harder to reverse course," Bremer said in a recent interview.

As of June 14, Bremer had issued 97 legal orders, which are defined by the U.S. occupation authority as "binding instructions or directives to the Iraqi people" that will remain in force even after the transfer of political authority. An annex to the country's interim constitution requires the approval of a majority of Allawi's ministers, as well as the interim president and two vice presidents, to overturn any of Bremer's edicts. A senior U.S. official in Iraq noted recently that it would "not be easy to reverse" the orders.

It appears unlikely that all of the orders will be followed. Many of them reflect an idealistic but perhaps futile attempt to impose Western legal, economic and social concepts on a tradition-bound nation that is reveling in anything-goes freedom after 35 years of dictatorial rule.

The orders include rules that cap tax rates at 15 percent, prohibit piracy of intellectual property, ban children younger than 15 from working, and a new traffic code that stipulates the use of a car horn in "emergency conditions only" and requires a driver to "hold the steering wheel with both hands."

Iraq has long been a place where few people pay taxes, where most movies and music are counterfeit, where children often hold down jobs and where traffic laws are rarely obeyed, Iraqis note.

Other regulations promulgated by Bremer prevent former members of the Iraqi army from holding public office for 18 months after their retirement or resignation, stipulate a 30-year minimum sentence for people caught selling weapons such as grenades and ban former militiamen integrated into the Iraqi armed forces from endorsing and campaigning for political candidates. He has also enacted a 76-page law regulating private corporations and amended an industrial-design law to protect microchip designs. Those changes were intended to facilitate the entry of Iraq into the World Trade Organization, even though the country is so violent that the no commercial flights are allowed to land at Baghdad's airport.

Some of the new rules attempt to introduce American approaches to fighting crime. An anti-money-laundering law requires banks to collect detailed personal information from customers seeking to make transactions greater than $3,500, while the Commission on Public Integrity has been given the power to reward whistleblowers with 25 percent of the funds recovered by the government from corrupt practices they have identified.

In some cases Bremer's regulations diverge from the Bush administration's domestic policies. He suspended the death penalty, and his election law imposes a strict quota: One of every three candidates on a party's slate must be a woman.
___________________________________________

Interestingly enough, the Post quotes another person at the end of the article.

Campbell said it would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce the provision separating militia members from politics since all the major Iraqi political parties are associated with armed organizations. Although the occupation authority has attempted to demobilize militias, most have not yet disbanded.

Juan Cole, a University of Michigan professor who specializes in Iraq, said the appointed electoral commission's power to eliminate political parties or candidates for not obeying laws would allow it "to disqualify people someone didn't like."

He likened the power of the commission to that of religious mullahs in Iran, who routinely use their authority to remove candidates before an election. "In a way, Mr. Bremer is using a more subtle form than the one used by hard-liners in Iran to control their elections," Cole said.



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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Vvellum]
    #2839364 -

So we installed a CIA stooge in power with a bunch of cronies who have been voted for by no-one and need american protection to stop the Iraqis killing them.

This is liberation?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2839736 -

Quote:
there are people who will blame the ones opposing homocide bombers and other terrorist cowards instead they feel the need to get into bed with terrorists. This is what I don't understand.






I dont think there is anyone on this board that fits that description. Trying to empathise with people and understand the reasons for their actions does not equate with support or getting into bed with terrorists.

Nor does criticising western governments or the actions of israel for that matter.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: GazzBut]
    #2839748 -

Quote:
I dont think there is anyone on this board that fits that description.




I disagree.

Quote:
Trying to empathise with people and understand the reasons for their actions does not equate with support or getting into bed with terrorists.




I disagree. Would you empathize with someone who raped and murdered a woman? or a child?

Quote:
Nor does criticising western governments or the actions of israel for that matter.




I agree


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Vvellum]
    #2839785 -

Good post. Anyone else who thinks the Iraqi's really are in charge would need to explain this as well:

"The provisional government will not be able to handle security on its own. There was an argument at the UN over whether the Iraqis will have a veto over US military operations. The US resisted this demand from the French and Germans. At the end of the day it's the Americans who will have the power to fight the resistance - or the terrorists, depending on which side of the fence you're on."

source


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Swami]
    #2840741 -

I agree.. Although this installation of a puppet regime is just less direct work for America. Now we can have the Iraqis take the blame as they follow our orders, should they fail

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Xlea321]
    #2840839 -

So we installed a CIA stooge in power with a bunch of cronies who have been voted for by no-one and need american protection to stop the Iraqis killing them.

We do this all the time with petty dictators like the Shah of Iran, Marcos, Noriega, Hussein, et al; but then they always get too big for their britches and bite the hand that feeds them. Then we need to install new puppets that will "behave" for a few years.

Rinse & repeat.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Swami]
    #2841021 -

Japan shore worked out swell.

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2841388 -


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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: ]
    #2841597 -

Germany

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2841653 -


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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: ]
    #2841702 -

What were the 7 again/

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2841969 -


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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: ]
    #2842653 -

there's a list, i'll try to find it, that was on the MSN website a few days ago of all the "nation building" endeavors that we went through, I believe the record was 50/50 but I don't remember exactly. If any of you read it it would end this conversation really quick.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2843055 -

Quote:
I disagree.




Gonna name some names then??

Quote:
I disagree. Would you empathize with someone who raped and murdered a woman? or a child?




If it would in someway help to understand how these mindsets are created and maybe even help find ways to prevent this kind of behaviour then yes I would. Note your question was not do I condone this behaviour.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2843061 -

if its only 50/50 perhaps you should quit.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: GazzBut]
    #2843147 -

Quote:
Gonna name some names then??




why?

Quote:
If it would in someway help to understand how these mindsets are created and maybe even help find ways to prevent this kind of behaviour then yes




ha, you're full of shit.:lol: Understanding wouldn't stop your mom from getting raped or a child for that matter.  You'd just be a "informed" victim.  What is worth understanding when, lets say, Arabs want Isreali's dead because they exist?

If i wanted to kill someone because it just makes me happy, what's worth understanding?

Quote:
Note your question was not do I condone this behaviour. 




Note: If i wanted to ask a question as to whether you condone it or not I would of asked that question.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: GazzBut]
    #2843154 -

Quote:
if its only 50/50 perhaps you should quit.




I'd have no problem with that. Believe me, there are many people out there that would make the world a better place if they just killed one another. We (the US) should just let the world solved their own problems (N. Korea, Middle East, Africa..etc.)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Iraqi Transfer of Power [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2844242 -

Quote:
ha, you're full of shit. Understanding wouldn't stop your mom from getting raped or a child for that matter.




Well Inny I didnt realise you were a first class psychologist who can so easily dismiss the value of studying the mindsets of those around us. Excuse me if I ignore your egoic little rants. :-)

Anyway I find it very interesting that none of the pro war right wingers have addressed the points raised in the sources presented by myself and Bio. Where are you o mighty pinky??!! lol


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Always Smi2le

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