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Anonymous

the iraqi people.
    #1948563 - 09/24/03 06:05 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

will they be better or worse for this?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1948572 - 09/24/03 06:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In the long run? Only time will tell. For now? I'd say they are better, overall.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1948591 - 09/24/03 06:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

better or worse?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1948620 - 09/24/03 06:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Iraqi kid who had his arms blown off and his entire family wiped out is worse off.

The guy who informed on Saddams sons and got 25 million is better off.

You need to be more specific.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1948660 - 09/24/03 06:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

the iraqi people as a whole. you can do that you know.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1948671 - 09/24/03 06:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Iraqi people as a whole are better off. Objective Proof: Remember that religious parade that occured a few days after we "liberated" Iraq? It was celebrated by the MAJORITY of the nation. Saddam religious persuasion was the opposite of these (I forget if he was sunni or a shia), and the entire time he was in charge, he forbid this celebration. Now, the religious group with the greatest number of people are allowed to celebrate and are no longer being persecuted. Using Mills Utilitarianism theory, the action that brings the greater happiness to the greater number of people is the most ethical action. I'd say that a greater number of people are better off in Iraq than they were before Saddam left.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: lysergic]
    #1948686 - 09/24/03 06:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i'd say that proof would be a statistically significant poll of the iraqi people.

i personally believe that they're probably better off.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: lysergic]
    #1948693 - 09/24/03 06:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Using Mills Utilitarianism theory, the action that brings the greater happiness to the greater number of people is the most ethical action. I'd say that a greater number of people are better off in Iraq than they were before Saddam left.




By using that same equation, we can safely assume that by judging the majority of the worlds reaction that the invasion of Iraq was not ethical....correct?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/24/03 06:36 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Rono]
    #1948698 - 09/24/03 06:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

what do you think rono?

better or worse?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1948713 - 09/24/03 06:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hard to say for sure...but right now I'd say that they are much worse off than they were 2 years ago.

I was watching a special on TV last night and there are less medical supplies now, than before the war. The Iraqis are becoming very disenchanted with the promises that were given to them and what has actually happened.

You may have seen the big banner on one of the buildings that said "No Democracy and No Watermelons" Which in a rough translation means..."where's the beef?"

If the "rebuilding" of Afghanistan is any indication, I would say that the Iraqi people will have a very long wait before their lives improve for the better.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (09/24/03 06:41 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1948716 - 09/24/03 06:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Poll shows Baghdad residents optimistic



BAGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 24 (UPI) -- Nearly two-thirds of Baghdad residents say the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth the hardships they have endured, a report said Wednesday.

Despite the collapse of government and civic institutions, looting and violence and shortages of water and electricity, 67 percent of 1,178 Iraqis told a Gallup survey team within five years, their lives will be better than before the U.S.-led invasion.

Only 8 percent of those queried said they believed their lives would be worse off as a result of the military campaign to remove Saddam and his Baath Party leadership, the New York Times reported.

The survey, which was conducted in late August and early September, cut across the ethnically diverse landscape of the capital.

The results revealed Iraqis in the capital still maintain a great deal of skepticism about the motives of the United States and Britain.

Residents said they hold France and its president, Jacques Chirac, in higher regard than President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.


Link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948726 - 09/24/03 06:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

yep, that'll do it.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1948744 - 09/24/03 06:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Poll shows Baghdad residents optimistic



BAGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 24 (UPI) -- Nearly two-thirds of Baghdad residents say the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth the hardships they have endured, a report said Wednesday.

Despite the collapse of government and civic institutions, looting and violence and shortages of water and electricity, 67 percent of 1,178 Iraqis told a Gallup survey team within five years, their lives will be better than before the U.S.-led invasion.

Only 8 percent of those queried said they believed their lives would be worse off as a result of the military campaign to remove Saddam and his Baath Party leadership, the New York Times reported.

The survey, which was conducted in late August and early September, cut across the ethnically diverse landscape of the capital.

The results revealed Iraqis in the capital still maintain a great deal of skepticism about the motives of the United States and Britain.

Residents said they hold France and its president, Jacques Chirac, in higher regard than President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.


Link




Interesting article...but we need to remember that the Iraqis were promised alot...of course they will be optimistic...for their sake I hope they are right.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1949840 - 09/25/03 12:11 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Iraqi people may be better off in the long run, but.........

WHAT ABOUT US!?

The humanitarian aspect of the invasion is just bullshit to help you feel better about what we did. It's weak justification.




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--------------------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: ]
    #1950077 - 09/25/03 01:56 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Is this what they mean by freedom ?" asked Zaidan Khalaf Mohammed on Tuesday after the US 82nd Airborne Division had killed his brother and two other family members in Sichir, central Iraq, in an air and ground assault on their one-storey home. The Americans had come, he said, "like terrorists", while US forces claimed they had only attacked when they came under fire. No evidence was offered and none found.

These killings are after all merely the latest in a string of bloody "mistakes" by US occupation forces, including the repeated shooting of demonstrators, murderous attacks on carloads of civilians at roadblocks and this month's massacre of members of the US-controlled Iraqi police force. In most countries, any of these incidents would have provoked a national or even an international outcry. But in occupied Iraq, US officials feel under no pressure to offer more than the most desultory explanation for the destruction of expendable Iraqi lives.

Six months after the launch of the invasion, it has become ever clearer that the war was not only a crime of aggression, but a gigantic political blunder for those who ordered it and who are only now beginning to grasp the scale of the political price they may have to pay. While George Bush has squandered his post-September 11 popularity, raising the spectre of electoral defeat next year as American revulsion grows at the cost in blood and dollars, Tony Blair's leadership has been fatally undermined by the deception and subterfuge used to cajole Britain into a war it didn't, and once again doesn't, support.

Every key calculation the pair made - from the response of the UN to the number of troops needed and the likely level of popular support and resistance in Iraq - has proven faulty.

Whatever the formal outcome of the Hutton inquiry and the displacement activity of the government's row with the BBC over an early-morning radio broadcast, it has unquestionably confirmed that Alastair Campbell and other Downing Street officials did strain every nerve to create the false impression of a chemical and biological weapons threat from Iraq, a threat that it is increasingly obvious did not exist.

Even more damagingly, the inquiry has revealed Blair's reckless dismissal of the February warning by the joint intelligence committee that an attack on Iraq would increase the threat of terrorism.

Combined with the failure to find any weapons, the admission by the former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix that he now believes Iraq long ago destroyed them and the discrediting of a litany of propaganda ploys (links with al-Qaida, the forged Niger uranium documents, the 45-minute weapons launch claim), Hutton has helped to strip the last vestige of possible legal cover from the aggression and shift opinion against the war.

So has the chaos and resistance on the ground in Iraq, where guerrilla attacks on US soldiers are running at a dozen a day and US casualties are now over 300 dead and 1,500 wounded. Latest estimates of Iraqi civilian war deaths are close to 10,000, while in the security vacuum hundreds more are now being being killed every week, a point driven home by yesterday's bomb attacks in Baghdad and Mosul. In Baghdad alone, there has been a 25-fold increase in gun-related killings since the invasion, from 20 to more than 500 last month.

Paul Bremer, the head of the US occupation authority, insists "there is enormous gratitude for what we have done", and the dwindling band of cheerleaders for war have seized on contradictory and questionable Baghdad opinion surveys conducted by western pollsters to back the claim.

But it is not the story told by US defence department officials, who last week conceded that hostility to the occupation and support for armed resistance was growing and spreading well beyond Iraq's Sunni heartlands. Hence George Bush's humiliating return to the UN this week. But any attempt to prettify US-led colonial rule in Iraq in the colours of the UN (already the target of armed attacks) is no more likely to work than the League of Nations mandate Britain secured in Iraq in the 1920s. As then, the US and Britain insist in true colonial style that Iraqis "are not ready" to rule themselves, and the hostility to President Chirac's demand for an early transfer of sovereignty confirms that the US will willingly hand over power only once it is confident of controlling the political outcome.

The real meaning of US promises of freedom and democracy was spelled out this week by two decisions of the US-appointed, and increasingly discredited, Iraqi Governing Council. The first was to put the entire economy, except oil, up for sale to foreign capital, combined with a sweeping free-market shock therapy programme, pre-empting the decisions of any elected Iraqi government. The second was to impose restrictions on the Arabic satellite TV stations al-Jazeera and al-Arabiya for their reports on the resistance to the occupation.

The reality is that the occupation offers no route to democracy, which is unlikely to favour US interests. What is needed is a political decision to end the occupation, a timetable for early withdrawal and the temporary replacement of the invading armies with an acceptable security force, perhaps provided by the Arab League, while free elections are held for a constituent assembly under UN auspices.

But none of that is likely to happen unless the US, the UK and their allies find the burden of occupation greater than that of withdrawal. Unpalatable though it may be, it is the Iraqi resistance that has transformed the balance of power over Iraq in the past six months, as it has frustrated US efforts to impose its will on the country and the US public has begun to grasp the price of military rule over another people.

By demonstrating the potential costs of pre-emptive invasion, the resistance has also reduced the threat of US attacks against other potential targets, such as Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba. Bush, Blair and the newly cowed BBC absurdly describe those defending their own country as "terrorists" - as all colonialist and occupation forces have done - and accuse them of being "Saddam loyalists".

In fact, the evidence suggests a much more varied political make-up, but if Bush and Blair have managed to achieve a partial rehabilitation of Ba'athism in Iraq they have only themselves to blame.

There is now a popular majority in Britain against the war and the occupation. Blair has repeatedly emphasised his personal judgment in the decision to join Bush's war - and that judgment has been shown to be fatally flawed. Iraq has become the crucible of global politics and the testbed for the US drive to global domination. It is in the interests of the security of us all that there is now a political reckoning at home and in the US for that aggression.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1950342 - 09/25/03 05:11 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What? No link?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1950347 - 09/25/03 05:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Is this what they mean by freedom ?" asked Zaidan Khalaf Mohammed on Tuesday after the US 82nd Airborne Division had killed his brother and two other family members in Sichir, central Iraq, in an air and ground assault on their one-storey home. The Americans had come, he said, "like terrorists", while US forces claimed they had only attacked when they came under fire. No evidence was offered and none found.




"like terrorists"... oh the biting wit, surely this quote was included for comic purposes.
No evidence was found, then how can one judge the case. You have two conflicting reports and nothing to substantiate either of them. And for good measure i'll throw in a cheesy quote from CSI
"the evidence never lies"

Quote:

These killings are after all merely the latest in a string of bloody "mistakes" by US occupation forces, including the repeated shooting of demonstrators, murderous attacks on carloads of civilians at roadblocks and this month's massacre of members of the US-controlled Iraqi police force. In most countries, any of these incidents would have provoked a national or even an international outcry. But in occupied Iraq, US officials feel under no pressure to offer more than the most desultory explanation for the destruction of expendable Iraqi lives.



No figures
No mention of a source for his information
No specific details or cases

Quote:

Whatever the formal outcome of the Hutton inquiry and the displacement activity of the government's row with the BBC over an early-morning radio broadcast, it has unquestionably confirmed that Alastair Campbell and other Downing Street officials did strain every nerve to create the false impression of a chemical and biological weapons threat from Iraq, a threat that it is increasingly obvious did not exist.
Combined with the failure to find any weapons, the admission by the former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix that he now believes Iraq long ago destroyed them and the discrediting of a litany of propaganda ploys (links with al-Qaida, the forged Niger uranium documents, the 45-minute weapons launch claim), Hutton has helped to strip the last vestige of possible legal cover from the aggression and shift opinion against the war.




The Hutton Inquiry in all its glory.... I need not comment on this...

Quote:

Paul Bremer, the head of the US occupation authority, insists "there is enormous gratitude for what we have done", and the dwindling band of cheerleaders for war have seized on contradictory and questionable Baghdad opinion surveys conducted by western pollsters to back the claim.




Interesting how he is willing to accept western figures and facts as long as they support his view.

I can't be bothered continuing as it would appear the subsequent statement refers to colonialism.... is this some of Pilger's work or do all liberal writers share some form of template....

And to be frank what were you actually trying to do with that post. Refute LDS source by posting a "libbie" novel?
Seems a little innocuous to me, which I suppose is to be expected....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: the iraqi people. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1950528 - 09/25/03 09:06 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

That would be the link...
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1049232,00.html


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Convert Metric and Imperial.


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1950618 - 09/25/03 10:35 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

and this would be exactly what i'm not talking about. make a new thread.


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Anonymous

Re: the iraqi people. [Re: Learyfan]
    #1950623 - 09/25/03 10:39 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Iraqi people may be better off in the long run, but.........

WHAT ABOUT US!?


that's what i'm thinking. if hussein wasn't a threat to us, this was not only a waste of military resources, but an abuse of them as well... and the fact that our nation's leadership had to deceive the public to pull it off sure doesn't make it any better.

The humanitarian aspect of the invasion is just bullshit to help you feel better about what we did. It's weak justification.

not really. it's just a concern of mine. i don't feel bad about what we did. it wasn't wrong. it was just stupid.


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