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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824494 -

Moonshoe said:
now dont mistake me here, i am not blaming our soldiers. Soldiers are victims of war, just like civilians. But i place the blame for each one of our soldiers who die in iraq, and each iraqi civilian who dies there, on the administration who sent em. My anger is not at the joe american stuck in iraq trying to avoid getting his head blown off, he has enough to deal with. Its the people who sent him there, for their own profit, based on false reasons and deciet that i am pissed at


its joe civilians duty to resist.
but i dont mind. . warriors die.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824624 -

Quote:
Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.


Source and link please.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2824769 -

did everybody miss this? i already posted one source

"Washington -- A company tied to Vice President Dick Cheney has won a Pentagon contract for advice on rebuilding Iraq's oil fields after a possible war.

The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.

The Houston company is a respected name in petroleum industry construction and one of a few companies capable of large-scale oil field reconstruction. But its ties to Cheney arouse suspicions among those who believe that a primary motive for a U.S. war in Iraq is oil.

"I certainly don't think this comes as much of a surprise," said Michael Renner, a researcher at WorldWatch Institute, commenting on the Halliburton contract, "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."



like i said earlier, when i said Americans i wasn't refering to the country as a whole or even a large group, but certain individuals, such as Dick Cheneys' long time buisness partners, stand to make profits in the billions developing these iraqi oil fields.

heres another one

American to Oversee Iraqi Oil Industry
by David Teather in New York

"The US is preparing to install an American chairman on a planned management team of the Iraqi oil industry, providing further ammunition to critics who have questioned the Bush administration's agenda in the Middle East..."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0426-02.htm

and another one:

Texas oil industry set to profit from Iraq war:

Texas oil and gas companies are well-positioned to benefit from the rebuilding of Iraq's multibillion-dollar oil industry, experts say
..."

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2003/03/24/story4.html


Why it may have been an Oil War:

Oil is seldom mentioned for the reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq, but it may be one of many reasons.


http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/philligr.html

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824842 -

Didn't miss it. I read your sentence as we were stealing the Iraqis oil from them.

Perhaps had your sentence been better phrased, such as "several Americans".

even then it would still be more fiction than fact.

Hyperbole will get you no-where.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2824998 -

BleaK said:
maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"


Yeah, what the fuck is with white people being in the middle-east. White people should not be where they don't belong and if they dont leave we need to send little girls to blow them up.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: d33p]
    #2825140 -

"i didnt mean 'americans' in the collective sense, i meant americans. A few"

thats exactly what i said like nine posts back. Thats not hyperbole at all. Anyways you asked for the sources and i gave you some, many more are available as well.

"even then it would be more fiction than fact"

theres no fiction involved. I said that a few americans are profiting from this war, primarily those with previous buisness ties to members of the bush administration, like haliburton, and that is exactly what is happening.
read the links.

peace

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825228 -

Moonshoe,

im not taking a side here, but id like to know if you have any sources for the claim of 10 million iraqi civilians killed thus far.  Its very easy to drop numbers that one is passionate about, im just wondering if you've got a source, cuz id love to read it :smile:

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2825299 -

Quote:
maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"



Sounds like she was used by some very bad people who need to be destroyed.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Kremlin]
    #2825301 -

no problem kremlin my man, take your pick:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/05/24/more-data-on-the-iraqi-civilian-death-toll/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html


http://antiwar.com/casualties/#count

peace
:mushroom2:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825307 -

10,000 not 10,000,000.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2825319 -

ah yes, 10,000 not 10,000,000 -- just a typo by me,

and thank you for those links moon

--Krem


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Kremlin]
    #2825340 -

no problem bro, didnt even notice the ten million thing. Youll notice the links vary somewhat in their stats, but all of them put the number no lower than 5000 and most say that 10000 is probably alot closer. The link i was using originally was the first one, iraqbodycount.net, which states a minimum of 9000 and a maximum of around 11000, so i used the number ten thousand in my post.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825366 -

The difficulty in determining how many non-combatants have been killed in Iraq (by either side) is that apart from the first week or two few if any Iraqi combatants were uniformed any longer. I find it interesting that none of the sites purporting to provide numbers of non-combatant deaths give a description of the methods by which they determine their numbers. If an alleyway in Fallujah is searched several hours after a firefight and contains, for example, six corpses of Iraqi males, none in uniform, are those corpses then deemed by the "body counters" to be civilian?

Who are the body counters, anyway? Are they third party folks (neither Iraqis nor coalition members) who just cruise around Iraq constantly on the lookout for corpses? Or are they a crew of reporters from Al-Reuters and/or AP sitting around the bar scarfing down gin and tonics waiting for the next Al-Jazeera delivery boy to drop off the latest casualty figures?

These are not facetious questions, by the way. Seriously, just who is it who is providing the counts to these websites?

pinky


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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Phred]
    #2825391 -

of course their valid questions, but there questions that are equally applicable to ANY statistic and ANY media source. For that reason i gave a good sample of different sources, all presumably using different informants (seeing as the numbers are never exactly the same twice) therefore by cross checking a number of sources one can come to the closest possible approximation.

Again, i dont know who they got their numbers from, just like i dont know that when i read the free press or watch the news, but the many sources i have checked have been in general agreement, so thats more than you normally get from mass media.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825463 -

Moonshoe writes:

of course their valid questions, but there questions that are equally applicable to ANY statistic and ANY media source.

Actually, this is not true. The nature of counting new homes built per year or total unemployment claims or highway deaths, for example, is inherently different from counting dead bodies (combatant and non-combatant) in a war zone in a foreign country. A new house is a new house -- a corpse in civilian clothing may or may not be a non-combatant.

The US military has made it a policy since the Viet Nam war not to disclose enemy body counts. I don't know what the policy is with the UK military, the Aussie military, the Italians and Poles, etc. Therefore in the case of body counts in areas patrolled predominantly by US troops, there is no such thing as an "official" body count. The ones who are in a position to best determine whether a given corpse was firing an AK47 or an RPG yesterday decline to do so.

My point is that it is quite obvious from reading the associated commentary at the sites you linked that the operators of those sites are opposed to the war. They therefore have a vested interest in inflating the figures and would be less likely to check out flimsy claims than a disinterested party would. I'm not necessarily saying they are pulling figures out of thin air (although that too is not beyond imagining) I am just saying that if some jihadist waltzes into their office claiming that his cousin was but a humble shoemaker killed by the imperialist aggressors rather than a charter member of Al Sadr's militia, the people filling in the checklists aren't likely gonna spend a lot of energy verifying his claim, they'll tend to accept it at face value.

pinky


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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Phred]
    #2825474 -

well actually i think that i can still say that those questions are equally applicable to any stat or media.

1. who is the author?
2. What is the source of the info?
3. what is the bias of the author?

No matter what, there is always a bias involved, although perhaps occasionally a truely objective census is taken, thats not the point though.

keep the above questions in mind at all times when reading anything. But the fact is those questions will always apply, and all media is somehow biased.

Sad facts of life.

However, i think the above websites are opposed to the war because their is a high civilian casualty rate, not the other way around.

which is to say, i think they oppose the war because so many people are dieing, rather than they misrepresent the statistics because they oppose the war.

Also, all these sources permit a wide range of possibilities, usually between five and ten thousand, to account for the inherent inexactness of these numbers. So its not like there saying ten thousand, there giving a reasonable range.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825779 -

soldiers are what they learn and from where they learned it. the american government is about the most disrespectful government in the history of mankind... aside from the roman empire.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825809 -

Quote:
the american government is about the most disrespectful government in the history of mankind... aside from the roman empire.



Wow...

..fucking Wow.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825819 -

Pshaw.

It's got to be at least in the top 10%.

It's not perfect, but it's probably better than at least 2 out of 5 european nations. And that's just the current ones.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825862 -

you're a puppet?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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