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terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger
    #2822442 -

I know alot of people are really upset about the two people, the American and Korean, who have been seen on public tv begging for their lives before being chopped.

Ive heard people say that this kind of evil justifies the war on iraq... the so called war on terror. Im sorry but i feel i have to say something here.

First off, killing civilians is WRONG WRONG WRONG!
but it is not a solely 'terrorist' activity. The united states has a rich tradition of choosing 'civilian targets' that dates back to massive civilian firebombings we waged in world war two.

Today, these 'terrorists' are chopping off civilian heads, but why are they doing it? because they want us to leave their country, which we invaded, causing massive damage and suffering among their population, justified entirely by falsified intelligence and preacher rhetoric. These people have sufferd ENORMOUSLY as a direct result of U.S. occupation, and now they are desperate enough to kill civilians. Sad, but hardly surprising, in light of the fact that

AMERICAN BOMBS AND TROOPS HAVE KILLED UPWARDS OF TEN THOSAND IRAQI CIVILIANS DURING THIS INVASION AND OCCUPATION.

now, thats five thousand times more civilians than the so called 'terrorists' have killed, and to put it simply WE STARTED IT.

maybe if we had seen each and every one of those ten thousand iraqi men women and children blown to crap on tv like we watched the american and korean die, we would realize how absurd we sound when we say that these beheadings justify this war.

If i beat a man to deaths-edge on the street and with his last ounce of strength he scratches my cheek, do i say 'see! this is why i beat him up in the first place!'

like i said, killing civilians is WRONG and the people who commited this crime did an evil thing. But we can't let our anger and disgust cloud our judgment. We need to stop, relax and think about the causes for this violence, and our own role in it. We cant let these videos act as fuel for a fire of hate and intolerance.

We must feel every bit as strongly for every iraqi child killed by American 'shock and awe' as we do for that apache-helicopter maker and the korean. Their white(ish) skin and the fact that their deaths were televised do not make those deaths weigh 5000 times more heavily on the scales.

Realize that our government filters all the media that we recieve to influence our oppinions, and that is why we were allowed to see these videos and not the true gore and horror that is american-occupied iraq. Because they want to play off your anger and fear to fuel another wave of profiteering on innocent dead. Just like they did with 9/11.

there were no WMD's. Saddam did not participate in the attack on the world trade centers. The UN did not sanction this attack. Ten thousand innocents have died. Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.

Two retaliatory beheadings do not equal 'justification'

PEACE PEACE PEACE
LOVE !!

:sad: :sad: :sad:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822462 -

Your right, the TERRORISTS are killing civilians because they want us to go away. They want to take our country and blow it up to a million pieces. They are playing psychological warfare, they want to turn the people of America against themselves so they can run around unchallenged again, for the purpose of doing more damage to us.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2822544 -

"Your right, the TERRORISTS are killing civilians because they want us to go away."

Yes. But not just the terrorists, the civilians as well, the average iraqi wants us to go away, because our prescence is endangering and reducing the quality of life of them and their families.

"They want to take our country and blow it up to a million pieces"

and so we just go and blow THEIR country into a million pieces?
gee. Lets throw some more gas on that there fire before it burns our house down.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822559 -

We are not blowing them up into a million pieces, we are trying to be as careful as we can not to have a mass battle over civilians after the initial liberation. There are casualties, but we dont want to blow it up killing millions, like they want to do to us.

Anybody against the west is sided with the civilians, they have been fighting terror with terror in some parts over there for long periods of time know. Its how things work over there, its time for it to change.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823402 -

Moonshoe said:
I know alot of people are really upset about the two people, the American and Korean, who have been seen on public tv begging for their lives before being chopped.



I know some people like that too! We must travel in the same circles.
Quote:
but it is not a solely 'terrorist' activity. The united states has a rich tradition of choosing 'civilian targets' that dates back to massive civilian firebombings we waged in world war two.



I forgot the name of the book, but it discusses how Goebbles and other Nazis admitted that Dresden had large amounts of military infrastructre in it. However, we did do some massive overkill.But we won the war, Jews aren't being killed en masse, and, well, times are done with.
Quote:
Today, these 'terrorists' are chopping off civilian heads, but why are they doing it? because they want us to leave their country, which we invaded, causing massive damage and suffering among their population, justified entirely by falsified intelligence and preacher rhetoric.



So the loudest actions out of a nation are the one you think the majority of the people agree with? Think that the world thought that McVeigh spoke for the majority of Americans?
Quote:
These people have sufferd ENORMOUSLY as a direct result of U.S. occupation



Oh yes, having "power" and "running clean water" and "no gassings by a lunatic" and "not starving in teh fucking streets", my oh my no wonder they are so upset!
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, and now they are desperate enough to kill civilians.



Unlike pre-War Iraq, where civilians weren'tk illed individually. OF course, that was because they were gassed and executed in groups.
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like i said, killing civilians is WRONG and the people who commited this crime did an evil thing. But we can't let our anger and disgust cloud our judgment. We need to stop, relax and think about the causes for this violence, and our own role in it. We cant let these videos act as fuel for a fire of hate and intolerance.



Yes, see, whenever something bad happens, we need to sit back and see why it's Americas fault.
Quote:
We must feel every bit as strongly for every iraqi child killed by American 'shock and awe' as we do for that apache-helicopter maker and the korean.



If the Iraqi's hadn't put SAM sites in schools, that might not have happened. The US didn't INTENTIONALLY set out to kill civilians, the Iraqi's did.
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Their white(ish) skin and the fact that their deaths were televised do not make those deaths weigh 5000 times more heavily on the scales.



lol...
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Realize that our government filters all the media that we recieve to influence our oppinions,



Are they going to "Filter" out farenheit 9/11 here soon?
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and that is why we were allowed to see these videos and not the true gore and horror that is american-occupied iraq.



"Allowed" to see what? I had to look for the actual execution. If you look, you'll find pictures of dead little Iraqis. I even remember them on the news.
Quote:
Because they want to play off your anger and fear to fuel another wave of profiteering on innocent dead. Just like they did with 9/11.



Are you on something? Is your tin foil hat nice and shiny?
Quote:
there were no WMD's. Saddam did not participate in the attack on the world trade centers.



Maybe, Maybe. So what?
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The UN did not sanction this attack.



Fuck the UN :-)
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Ten thousand innocents have died. Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.



I'll give you 100$ if you can show me that "Americans" in general are "getting rich" on Iraqi oil.
Quote:
Two retaliatory beheadings do not equal 'justification'



Three.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823715 -

?So the loudest actions out of a nation are the one you think the majority of the people agree with? Think that the world thought that McVeigh spoke for the majority of Americans??

honestly, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Loudest actions? Mcveigh? This isn?t about what I think, the majority of iraqi?s want us out. For a country claiming to be bringing them democracy, maybe we ought to respect that.


?Oh yes, having "power" and "running clean water" and "no gassings by a lunatic" and "not starving in teh fucking streets", my oh my no wonder they are so upset!?

well know we have your opinion? here?s some other ones:

?BAGHDAD ? Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll

Sabah Yeldo, a Christian who owns a store across town, says American failures have left the capital with higher crime and less-reliable services, including electricity. That is "making everybody look back and seriously consider having Saddam back again instead of the Americans."

Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

58% say the soldiers conduct themselves badly or very badly.

60% say the troops show disrespect for Iraqi people in searches of their homes, and 42% say U.S. forces have shown disrespect toward mosques.

46% say the soldiers show a lack of respect for Iraqi women.

Only 11% of Iraqis say coalition forces are trying hard to restore basic services such as electricity and clean drinking water. ?

?Unlike pre-War Iraq, where civilians weren'tk illed individually. OF course, that was because they were gassed and executed in groups?

Saddam Hussein was bad, but there were MANY options on how to deal with him that didn?t involve the mass bombing of Iraq and an unsanctioned invasion. The UN could have cooperated to send human rights investigators to Iraq, and imposed trade sanctions and such until he started treating his people better.

That would have kept us from having ten thousand innocent deaths on our hands, but then again we also wouldn?t have that sweet oil.

?Yes, see, whenever something bad happens, we need to sit back and see why it's Americas fault?

Whenever you find yourself in a conflict, stop and think about your role in it and what you can do to diffuse the situation. All I?m saying is think like a human don?t react like an animal.

?If the Iraqi's hadn't put SAM sites in schools, that might not have happened?

than again, if we hadn?t gone into some insane mass bombing shock and awe campaign with no justifiable reasons, it DEFINETLY wouldn?t have happened.

?Are they going to "Filter" out farenheit 9/11 here soon??

thank god no, maybe you can watch it and save me the trouble of educating your ass? Seriously though if you don?t think the government is regulating the media you receive (mass media, internet excepted) than your lacking a basic understanding in how this whole system works. Sadly I don?t care enough to fill you in.

?Are you on something? Is your tin foil hat nice and shiny??

On something? Always? but the fact is we are profiteering of innocent dead. If it wasn?t for the mass horror and rage inspired by the deaths in 9/11, George Bush could never have sold this bullshit war to the public and never have gotten his hands on that oil. Thus he is profiteering both off the American dead, who he is using to sell his war, and off the Iraqi dead, who just happened to get in the way of Americas Economic growth.

And yeah my tin foil hat is quite nice, how?s that blindfold working for you?

?Maybe, Maybe. So what??
so your government lied and we have no right

Edited by Moonshoe (06/24/04 10:59 AM)

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823739 -

Moonshoe said:
Saddam Hussein was bad, but there were MANY options on how to deal with him that didn?t involve the mass bombing of Iraq and an unsanctioned invasion. The un could have cooperated to send human rights investigators to Iraq, and imposed trade sanctions and such until he started treating his people better.



Oh yes, UN sanctions seemed to be very effective with Saddam.
Quote:
That would have kept us from having ten thousand innocent deaths on our hands, but then again we also wouldn?t have that sweet oil.



Any proof as to America being "Rich" due to this oil?
Quote:
thank god no, maybe you can watch it and save me the trouble of educating your ass?



I'm not sure what would be funnier, Captain Obesity's Lies or you thinking you can "educate me". Or maybe you thinking that Porky McManTits film can actually be used as a tool of "education".
Quote:
Seriously though if you don?t think the government is regulating the media you receive (mass media, internet excepted) than your lacking a basic understanding in how this whole system works. Sadly I don?t care enough to fill you in.



Your lack of care and you being totally wrong makes it really hard for you to pull that off.
Quote:
And yeah my tin foil hat is quite nice, how?s that blindfold working for you?



I'm not sure. I can "see" that I asked you to prove your claim that Americans are getting rich from Iraqi oil, and you didn't do that. Should I use bigger fonts next time?
Quote:
so your government lied and we have no right


No right to do what?

Go ahead and show me how "americans" are "getting rich" off of Iraqi oil. Thanks.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823756 -

"I'm not sure. I can "see" that I asked you to prove your claim that Americans are getting rich from Iraqi oil, and you didn't do that. Should I use bigger fonts next time?"

oh my god, did i miss one of your all important points? my bad..
i didnt mean 'americans' in the collective sense, i meant americans. A few. Specifically Those who supported George Bush during the election, and those to whom he has previous buisness ties.

Look it up. ask swami, he knows all about it
it took me 2 seconds to find this on google, it was the first thing that came up

"Washington -- A company tied to Vice President Dick Cheney has won a Pentagon contract for advice on rebuilding Iraq's oil fields after a possible war.

The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.

The Houston company is a respected name in petroleum industry construction and one of a few companies capable of large-scale oil field reconstruction. But its ties to Cheney arouse suspicions among those who believe that a primary motive for a U.S. war in Iraq is oil.

"I certainly don't think this comes as much of a surprise," said Michael Renner, a researcher at WorldWatch Institute, commenting on the Halliburton contract, "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."

pay special attention to that last part: "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."

the information is out there man, and the connections are easy to make. Just let drop the defensive mind set, drop your preconcieved notions and do some research.

By the way, i studied media censorship in university, its not some whacko theory its simple, straightforward fact. It has to do with the various 'filters' that our media goes through as a result of a for-profit media system.

read "the myth of the liberal media" by noam chomsky, if YOU care enough.


Edited by Moonshoe (06/24/04 11:08 AM)

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823931 -

Quote:
Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.



I for one am getting poor.

Ask 100 people at any gas station in America, 95 will say the same thing.

The other 5 are already rich and don't care.


--------------------
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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823953 -

Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

Are they soldiers or crossing guards? If there is gunfire, get down!

58% say the soldiers conduct themselves badly or very badly.

What the fuck does that mean? I guess someone saw them gambling again.

60% say the troops show disrespect for Iraqi people in searches of their homes, and 42% say U.S. forces have shown disrespect toward mosques.

The simple fact that they are there searching is probably the "disrespect" that they refer to.

46% say the soldiers show a lack of respect for Iraqi women.

Again, this is probably because they are making women take the sheets off their faces to see who they really are.

Only 11% of Iraqis say coalition forces are trying hard to restore basic services such as electricity and clean drinking water. ?

The 11% who are helping them fix things, rather than sit around and bitching about us being there.

I laugh at these statistics. Human beings bitch and whine about shit when there is peace. Do you really think we are going to get rave reviews during an occupation?



--------------------
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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2824044 -

> Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

One of the guys that used to work for me just got back from Iraq. When I asked him how it was, he said, "Really bad." Pressing for an example, this is what he said (paraphrased):

We were standing at a checkpoint, five or six soldiers, when a little girl about four years old runs up to one of the soldiers. As he bends down to see what she wants, she hands him a live gernade, minus the safety pin. Both girl and soldier die. This is the kind of thing we would see every day.


We aren't talking about decent, moral people here. We are talking about cold blooded cowards that send innocent children to their deaths (the terrorists, not the people of Iraq). War is ugly and people die as a result of it. I do not agree with the politics that have led to our troops being over there... but before we judge them, while sitting in our air-conditioned houses watching from the safety of our couches, lets experience what our soldiers are going through on a daily basis.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824100 -

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Agreed.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824190 -

Maybe we should stop showing any sort of compassion and just kill anybody then?

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824203 -

I'm all for showing compassion, just not for those that are trying to kill me or want ME dead.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824206 -

We should drop an LSD bomb on Iraq.

Chill them niggas out.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824222 -

> Maybe we should stop showing any sort of compassion and just kill anybody then?

I don't have all the answers... there is a side of me that wants to do just that... they wanna bitch about how bad we are... fine, lets live up to their expectations... lets show them how bad we can really be... no court, no jury, no torture, just a bullet in the head for anybody even thought to be associated with a terrorist...

... but what does that get us? I may not like what my brothers and sisters are doing, but they are still my family. I would much rather ignore the hate and instead find love and compassion, difficult as it may be. Unforutunately, for the soldiers, this is not an option.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824235 -

Moonshoe said:
Look it up. ask swami, he knows all about it



Hah
Quote:
The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.



why don't you check and see how many years Halliburton has had contracts like this? They began back in the CLinton administration.
Quote:
the information is out there man, and the connections are easy to make. Just let drop the defensive mind set, drop your preconcieved notions and do some research.



Riiight.
Quote:
By the way, i studied media censorship in university, its not some whacko theory its simple, straightforward fact. It has to do with the various 'filters' that our media goes through as a result of a for-profit media system.



So you are saying that the media is punished somehow if they don't toe the party line? Any proof of this?
Quote:
read "the myth of the liberal media" by noam chomsky, if YOU care enough.



You are full of objective sources. Chomsky, Swami. Lots of laughs/

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824374 -

Seuss said:
> Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

One of the guys that used to work for me just got back from Iraq. When I asked him how it was, he said, "Really bad." Pressing for an example, this is what he said (paraphrased):

We were standing at a checkpoint, five or six soldiers, when a little girl about four years old runs up to one of the soldiers. As he bends down to see what she wants, she hands him a live gernade, minus the safety pin. Both girl and soldier die. This is the kind of thing we would see every day.


We aren't talking about decent, moral people here. We are talking about cold blooded cowards that send innocent children to their deaths (the terrorists, not the people of Iraq). War is ugly and people die as a result of it. I do not agree with the politics that have led to our troops being over there... but before we judge them, while sitting in our air-conditioned houses watching from the safety of our couches, lets experience what our soldiers are going through on a daily basis.


maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2824396 -

now dont mistake me here, i am not blaming our soldiers. Soldiers are victims of war, just like civilians. But i place the blame for each one of our soldiers who die in iraq, and each iraqi civilian who dies there, on the administration who sent em. My anger is not at the joe american stuck in iraq trying to avoid getting his head blown off, he has enough to deal with. Its the people who sent him there, for their own profit, based on false reasons and deciet that i am pissed at

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824441 -

germin8tionn8ion , ive watched your responses go from passionate but misguided paragraphs, to nitpicking one liners, to single words. If all you have to say about something is 'riiiight' or 'hah' than please dont waste space posting it. Youve succeeded in convincing me that you dont have anything to teach, and your not interested in learning. If you really want to know about media censorship, do some of your own studying ok? its not my duty to fill you in, and i wont allow my thread to be hijacked in getting into this, its a seperate topic.

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