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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26348080 -

Live poker has far worse players. It's not that easy to find time to go and sit with them when you have a job, young family etc. so I mostly play online.

No tells cuts both ways, they can't get a tell on you. You just use the other ways of making decisions, like what the cards are and the action up to this point.

Try to see if they're telling a consistent story or not. For example if you play in a game where people mostly check middle pair on the flop, but this time the players bet, so they might have top pair or better (we can say they're representing top pair). If the middle card on the board pairs and they bet again, they can't represent that they just made trips, because that would have checked and top pair (which is now 2-pair including the one on board) would check here. They probably have either nothing at all, or a set/2 pair on the flop which has now become a full house - I'd want to call here for example - even with A-high.

Also read about and understand the Ace-King-Queen game. The basic idea is to think about what strategies you would use if you played a game of poker where each person got one card only, and there were only 3 cards in the deck. There is usually a further restriction that the dealer can only bet or check, and the other player can only call or fold (or check if checked to). The exact strategy depends on the size of the bets and antes, but the basic idea is you always bet with an Ace (because you might get called) and always check with a King (because you'll always get called by better and never by worse) and sometimes bet with a Queen (because you might get him to fold and win the antes). The other players should always call with an Ace (because it's always best), always fold with a Queen, and call sometimes with a King (if he always calls then the other player should never bluff Queens so calling would always be a loss, but if he never calls then the other player will always bluff his queens and have bluffs half the time (as he also bets Aces) - meaning calling would be profitable, so the correct strategy is somewhere in between).

A lot of people (including online but especially live) are betting with the equivalent of a King in that game and they are folding out worse and giving away money to better hands. They justify it with reasons that don't relate directly to money, like I had to win the hand, I had to see where I was at etc. Don't do that yourself.

The other thing is the morality of bluffing. Bluffing is an essential move in the game and is not equivalent to lying or something like that.
If on the river would you bet half-pot with the best 30 hands and also with your worst ten hands you might get there with, your opponent should call with anything in that top 30, fold anything in the bottom 10, and has balanced odds (he's also getting 3-1 return on the call) for whether to call or fold with any hands in between, depending on tells or whatever. Let's say you never bluff though, the opponent should only call with hands that can beat at least 1/4 of your betting hands, equivalent to your top 22. If the opponent only calls with the equivalent hands to your top 22, well there is no point betting with anything worse than your 11th best hand as the lower ones will get called by better most of the time (actually this depends a bit on the exact hands he could get there with but the point basically stands). If you're never betting with anything worse than your top 11 hands, then the opponent should only be calling with his very best 7 or so hands and so on....
Essentially the game breaks down entirely without players "balancing" their "value" bets with bluffs. Therefore bluffing is not lying, it's just a normal move in the game and don't feel any morality about it. You'll give off fewer tells that way too.


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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26352982 -

Online poker is flooded by bots and cheaters. Live poker is easier but you play less hands. Its all about bankroll management

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: drbufo]
    #26355562 -

See that’s what worries me is the idea of the bots and cheater
Btw great post and information thank you - @testx3

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26358820 -

I’m gonna go with an experienced friend this weekend and give it a go , reading and watching tons, and practicing with good people,  in the mean time
But tell me
So I’m not obviously a noob to those around , what do I do in the physical establishment itself ?
I’ve never gambled at a professional casino ,so I know I call and reserve ahead of time cause it’ll be busy , but when I get there do I need to check in any where ? Or just go up to the table ? Who do I give my money to buy the chips ect like what is the basic set up when I get there

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26360435 -

Tripsten said:
I’m gonna go with an experienced friend this weekend and give it a go , reading and watching tons, and practicing with good people,  in the mean time
But tell me
So I’m not obviously a noob to those around , what do I do in the physical establishment itself ?
I’ve never gambled at a professional casino ,so I know I call and reserve ahead of time cause it’ll be busy , but when I get there do I need to check in any where ? Or just go up to the table ? Who do I give my money to buy the chips ect like what is the basic set up when I get there


Depends on the place. Usually best is to go to the poker room manager/supervisor and say you reserved or ask for a seat e.g. "Hi, I'm new here and I'd like to play $1/$2 No Limit Holdem", (this also depends on the jurisdiction, where I am you can't enter a gambling place without checking in first - they make sure you're not on the national self-exclusion list or in receipt of government benefits). Generally you buy chips from the poker dealer rather than from the cage. I wouldn't worry that much about looking like you have little experience with live poker. They still don't know how much or how little you have played online. Also if you have an idea of how they're going to play against you as a noob (will they bluff more often than normal, bluff less often?) then you know what to adapt to - you're one step ahead of their playing style.

Other than that, just do what others do.

Read up on the "1 chip rule". Application may vary but essentially if the bet to call is 800, unless you verbalise a bet then your chip movements are interpreted as follows:
1 chip = call - regardless of whether it is a 100, a 1000 or a 5000.
just enough chips = call so for example 2x 500 is a call
extra chips = raise so for example 2x 1000 = raise.
under-raise depends - so for example 2x500+1x100 is not a full raise (the minimum is to raise to at least 1600 here), whether it is rounded up or down (i.e. whether you are obliged to take back the 100 and then wait for change from the dealer or whether you are obliged to add a further 500 to make a full raise) varies depending on the house rules and the amounts.
If there is nothing to call then any amount of chips you put in is a bet.

Also read up on string-betting. If you haven't verbalised your action then only the first chips you put in count. (e.g. the bet is 1000, you want to raise to 4000 you take out four chips and hold them over the table, instead of dropping them together one drops earlier and hits the table - your action is over, you called so tough. Next time prepare the 4 chips behind the line on top of each other and slide them out in one motion)

The above rules might seem harsh to new players, and as a noob you'll probably trip up at least once, but if there weren't such rules to clearly interpret what the final action was as soon as something happened, then the place would be full of sharks doing things like "I call your 1000 (waits to see reaction, other player seems relieved) and raise another 3000" and so on - so it's actually the less regular players it is designed to protect. Generally all of this comes down to not letting people make part of their action before it's confirmed what the rest of it is and even if there is anything else.

Personally I prefer to just verbalise all my action, e.g. "raise to 3000", "fold", "call". Also never give the dealer a winning hand until the pot is being pushed to you - you avoid problems like who folded first, there being another player still in the hand you forgot about etc.

I'm not really one for tells, but the most reliable one I know of is that when the flop is all one suit, if a player looks at his hand, he's doing so to check if he has 1 (or 0) of that suit, he never has the flush because he would remember the suit of a suited hand (unless of course he's acting because he knows and also thinks you know about this tell - which as a noob you shouldn't).

The other one is "look left" pre-flop, people who are not playing the hand because they are going to fold often make it pretty obvious because they don't care about keeping it a secret. Sometimes you know you're effectively playing on the button when you're not and you can raise and take down a pot that by rights should have been contested between the blinds.

Get an easy remember starting hand chart (you can't consult it at the table), so for example part of mine would be, on the button any two cards the same suit and greater than 7. One to the right of the button same but must be greater than 8. Two or three spots to the right of the button, any two suited cards greater than 9 and so on. Work out something like the above for pairs, suited aces, unsuited aces, suited others, unsuited others and stick to it - avoid the temptation to play a lot of weak hands.

Edited by testtesttest (12/04/19 06:02 AM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26366915 -

ID was expired lol and I lost that white paper for it ( didn’t even think of it cause where I live every place either knows me or just doesn’t care ) so they didn’t let me in

Lol

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26371002 -

I was asked by PM for more clarity on the 1-chip rule.

The fundamental principle is that, to prevent sharks "shooting angles", a player's whole move is supposed to be made at once and not made in stages. Therefore, when a person puts chips out there is a rule to determine how that should be interpreted in one specific way only.

Situation 1
Let's say we reach the flop with two players, A and B.

Player A puts out a 500 chip, or five 100 chips, doesn't matter - it's clearly a bet of 500, not a check, and not a bet of anything more or less. He isn't allowed to add on more chips or take some off after he sees how people react to the bet.

It gets interesting now with the action of player B.

If he puts out a 500 that's clearly a call.

If he puts out 2x500 that's clearly a raise to 1000.

If he puts out a single 1000 chip then that might not seem clear, but the rule usually is that this is interpreted as a call. The dealer will generally just give change in this situation and deal the turn card. Players frequently need change in games so this way is much quicker than requiring them to do anything else.

Situation 2.
The bet to call is 1200, you have only some 5K chips and some 100s.

It's tempting to put out the 5K chip and two 100s in order to make it easier for the dealer to give change, but that ought to be interpreted as a raise to 5200. The correct way to call using only chips would be to slide out the single 5K chip. If instead you put in a single 100 chip it's interpreted as a call too. What I would generally do in this situation is slide out the 5K chip, and then once the action has moved on, place the two 100s just behind the line (i.e. on your side of the line) so that when the dealer comes to give change he can do it quickly.

It's IMHO best to just verbalise your action (assuming you can speak a language that's in use at the table, but that's usually English plus whatever the local language is), by saying "CALL", "RAISE TO 5000" before you put any chips out. In that case your verbalised action is binding and you're bound to follow though by putting the chips out to match it - obviously you can't change it by doing something different with chips.

If you're very nervous you might worry about giving off a tell through verbalised action though.

If in situation 1, you wanted to raise to 1000 but you only had 1K chips, then you would have no choice but to verbalise the action.

I think there are sometimes rules to prevent angle-shooting on the lines of saying "RAISE TO" (waits to see reaction) "1500" as again it's basically a move in two stages instead of one. I think in that situation you would be bound to make a minimum raise only but I'm not sure.

One more related thing is that if you turn over your cards without making it clear what you're doing then that's normally interpreted as a fold - so watch out to verbalise call or put chips out first if that's what you want to do. I nearly lost a hand like that once though they let me get away with it that time as I so clearly had a very strong hand. It's said that Johnny Chan in the final hand of the 1988 WSOP (the hand featured in the film Rounders), made this error although this rule wasn't enforced against him, probably also because he had the nuts so his intention was clear.

Edited by testtesttest (12/09/19 02:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26371465 -

I used to play poker full time for a living, but I could only make consistent good money when playing live tournaments and cash games. Online poker is about grinding and it destroys you.


--------------------

====> Making a timelapse video with a Raspberry Pi and a webcam <====

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: eLeSDenes]
    #26372628 -

Ohhhh ok I see
I get what your saying now
At first I had thought you were maybe describing some kind of chip language lol like were certain gestures or chips played a certain way means some kind of function
But I got you , only makes sense anyhow

And Denes, did you win more than you lost you would say ? And wdym by online is a lot of grinding

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26372812 -

Yes, live games are usually very profitable if you can exploit people's weaknesses. I was making quite good money (more than losing, actually I was living from my winnings for years), but it is like a full time job as one tournament can easily last 8hours.
But to get to that level, I had to read many many books, play a lot, review hands, participate in forum discussions...


--------------------

====> Making a timelapse video with a Raspberry Pi and a webcam <====

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: eLeSDenes]
    #26372952 -

Nice he’ll ya :smile:
I certainly don’t think poker success will come from no work , or is even common at all
I just know some people really end up finding good money in it and I enjoy the game in general so I figure why not see if I’m one of them

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26374544 -

———

Edited by Tripsten (12/11/19 03:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26374664 -

—————

Edited by Tripsten (12/11/19 03:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26501063 -

Damn , the only problem is listening to your body when it’s time to walk honestly, I’ve been liking roulette more and more

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26503457 -

Here’s a question , I’ve been in the casino a lot lately and things are going really well , but people keep telling me if I go in often and keep winning then eventually they are going to like make me lose or something , is there any truth to that ? And does a card membership play into that ? Cause I been thinking about getting one but isn’t it just. Way to track a player then ?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26515827 -

Which people are saying that? What is a card membership?

If you consistently (i.e. not just luck) win a lot at games other than poker (particularly blackjack) the casino will ban you. If you win at poker they don't care because it's money from the other players.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26577793 -

Eh nothing, just superstition amongst players I learned
I been doing super good
But I worry I’m become pretty addicted to it lol
Before the virus stuff I was going anywhere from 3-5 nights a week
But it’s like idk I’m winning

Edited by Tripsten (04/04/20 05:49 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26669952 -

Ok. Stay away from the roulette though.

I sometimes say that playing poker is the opposite of gambling (at least playing winning poker is the opposite of gambling).

The mental things that make roulette fun are the things that lead to bad poker play.

What in the sports and casino world is called "betting" is actually more equivalent to a "calling" in poker. You have your odds and you put the money in to see if you win, like making a call in poker. Every time you put money on a roulette table it's like calling an all-in when you don't have odds to hit.

Edited by testtesttest (05/14/20 04:02 AM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest] * 1
    #26730781 -

I’ve played poker professionally on and off for almost 20 years. The poker explosion in the 2000s made the game extremely difficult to play for a living. It was free money for a couple years until the fish and fad chasers burnt out and the rest got it down to a science. The general skill level now even in live 1-2 games is easily 5x better. A soft game now is one I wouldn’t have wasted time playing in 2004.

It’s still beatable but you need to be very good and lucky on top of it. You can play for 12 hours and the whole outcome could be determined by one hand. I can’t even tell you how many times I played near perfectly all day, finally got all my money in where I was 85%+ favorite and lost. Skill will get you into this big pots with a huge edge, but you need luck to actually win it. It used to be that a skilled player was almost a lock to make money but now the edges are so small that you can be a winning player and still lose if the few key hands go wrong.

I also count at blackjack. You cannot do this online.
Counting is extremely easy I could teach a 10 year old in 15 minutes. The thing is to be able to do it automatically while not looking like you’re counting. You need to be able to glance at the cards while carrying on a conversation and know the count.

Blackjack is different from no limit poker in that there is a correct play every time. The key to both is hand volume. Anything can happen in a 100 hour block. Don’t think you’re a genius because you’re winning everyday for a week. It WILL turn on you eventually. You need to have the bankroll and stomach to ride out the variance.

Online poker you’re better off playing a few smaller games. Say you’d normally buy in for 300 at a 1/2 live game. Online I would rather play four .25/.50 games with 75 dollars each. Again it comes down to hand volume. The more hands you see the more likely you are to have consistent wins.

As for anything besides poker and blackjack, you will lose if you play. Again it’s a volume thing. Anything can happen short term. You might win at slots or roulette for three weeks straight, but you’re having a streak of good luck. If you continue to play you will lose everything. There is no skill in these games that make it possible to beat them. A super common mistake I see all the time is mistaking luck for skill.

You are not good a craps, I promise you. You are not good at roulette. You do not have a system figured out for slots. You’re getting extremely lucky and you will lose everything very soon.


--------------------
LAGM2020

Edited by A.k.a (06/09/20 08:41 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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