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Online vs Offline Poker
    #26055903 -

Which has been consistently profitable for you in the long run ?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26055917 -

And actually
Here’s a list of a couple questions I have feel free to answer any , all or none

Do roulette computers work ? And should I get one and try a roulette system ? Interesting a little sketch by roulette as the odds are pretty bad but I’ve been hearing a lot of crazy stuff about roulette specifically since studying advantage gambling ( or trying to )

Secondly, my grandmother , grandfather and moms brother have all been FANTASTIC at professional gambling , can that kind of thing run in the family so to speak ?

Third, same question as poker but in regards to blackjack , offline or online
And would you consider poker or blackjack more profitable in your opinion in the long run ? Why?

I’ve been studying strategies and things of the sort for mostly piker for days on end now, literal hours every day I donate to these studies
If I truly put in the real effort and educate myself on my facets of it , in your opinion , can gambling be profitable long term and what would that mean exactly ?


Any general tips or bits of info is appreciated I’m attempting to approach this with caution
More trying to see if it’s something I’d be good at
I tried stocks and that was cool off a minute but there’s certain things I don’t like about it
I figure this is around the same odds ?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten] * 1
    #26055960 -

You really have to live poker to make a job of it. Read every book you can (Gordon, Harrington, Hansen are good to start), watch it on TV/youtube, and play for small money every chance you get. Make sure to memorize the odds/bet size and positional stuff right off the bat. You also have to learn cash game vs tourny style, they're basically two seperate games strategy wise.

Online can be okay but there is a lot of cheating, organised groups in Russia and such and even the US that will take up 5/6 seats at a table and play against you. I've even heard rumors of bots. Possibly sketch house meddling too. You also need to be good at using a HUD and understanding expected value. Gordons gold book goes pretty in depth with the numbers side of online, but it'll be like reading a physics textbook if you dont already have the basics down and have played with a HUD.

I made a few hundred by placing in large tournaments on carbon and occasional cash games and heads up, but it just got tedious and I'd need to get high/drunk to sit through the monotony, which lead to stupid risks sometimes. The few hundred was the profit left from ups and downs between winning and losing in the thousands. Now I just catch small tournaments with friends when I can and usually take home a small profit, but it's a lot of fun. Never had any financial success at casino tournaments but I've made it decently far, I hate the casino poker scene so have only played a couple

Black jack is not profitable long term without cheating, which will get you caught anyway. Even playing perfect you have a -1.5% disadvantage on every hand played, which adds up over time, every time (unless you play for huge money at first, luck into some money, then play for small change the rest of your life).

Same with roullete, the house always has the advantage therefore you will always lose over time except in the start big finish small example. You can win in poker because you're playing vs others and not the house. You do have to factor the rake into your strategy if you're playing cash games and want to play strictly by the odds, which is your best bet at turning a long term profit.

Edited by feevers (06/16/19 03:00 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: feevers]
    #26056003 -

Idk about making it a full on job, but a side income at the least for sure
Thank you for that information tho I’ll have to give those books a look

I hear on a lot of forums where I’ve been asking similar questions that picking the right table is important
What does that mean and how would you do that ?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26056561 -

Tripsten said:
Idk about making it a full on job, but a side income at the least for sure
Thank you for that information tho I’ll have to give those books a look

I hear on a lot of forums where I’ve been asking similar questions that picking the right table is important
What does that mean and how would you do that ?



Do you mean online or off? Online there's just too much cheating at the low levels IMO. I haven't played in 3 years, things could be different but I still personally know people who team up online. Long term profitability in normal stakes poker is all about consistently making the right move given the odds, throwing in multi accounting, collusion, and bots muddies those odds and makes profitability less likely. People do make money off it though, it's just not as simple as get good and win consistently anymore.

Offline, I wouldn't worry about picking a table until you're confident in your skills. Just start at the smallest stake table possible. Don't buy in at more than you can lose, because your ace high flush always loses to that weird random 2,7 full house.

The best table is the one with people who have more money and less skill than you. Some people claim they can sense these things and be successful 'whale hunting', but in reality you'll get stuck at a table with a bunch of regulars trying to do the exact thing you are, and getting in each other's way. A tourist destination during their busy times would likely be your best bet at some easy scores.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: feevers]
    #26057115 -

That certainly makes sense
But aren’t all larger casinos tourist destinations in a way ?
I love right by a Hollywood Casino it’s pretty big looks super nice and it’s the only one out here
I can’t tell if that’s good and prime for inexperienced new players or old ones , feels like it could be either lol

As far as offline or online I’m not sure I’ve been asking that on other forums too, I’m thinking offline tho as I hear more negativity similar to what you said about online poker.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26057120 -

Today I’m trying to read up on and learn to calculate pot odds and the odds of my hand and stuff
I think I’m getting it but if anyone could also explain a little bit of how they calculate these odds that would be great also

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten] * 1
    #26057348 -

Same odds as the stock market? No way.

The expected value of every play in a casino is a loss. A highly skilled player can make money in private card games, but they are making their money off of a lot of other people who mistakenly believe that they are highly skilled. And there is definitely no such thing as a roulette system that works.

In the long run the stock market always has gone up. And index funds do better than most stock pickers, when expense ratios are factored in. Like poker, there are some people that can do it better. But the majority of investors who don't use index funds do worse, because they mistakenly believe they will do better, or mistakenly believe that some expert they have chosen can. There is nothing wrong with using a smaller part of your funds to play the market. It can be educational and increase your interest in investing. But the great majority of us are better off by knowing our limitations.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26093455 -

Anyone know of any kind of programme where you can manually enter your cards and get odds pre/post flop?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Shadowman] * 1
    #26093501 -

Shadowman said:
Anyone know of any kind of programme where you can manually enter your cards and get odds pre/post flop?



Look into a heads up display (HUD) if you're into playing online, a good one should give you all that I'd assume.

For offline the basic 4/2 rule is a good trick. Let's say for whatever reason you need a Queen after the flop to hit a full house, and you already have one in your hand.  That means you assume there are 3 queens left to possibly draw, multiply 3 times 4 and you have a 12% chance (roughly) of hitting the full house. If the turn doesn't yield a queen, you just chop that in half (multiply the remaining 3 by 2 instead of 4) and you now have a 6% chance to hit your full house.

So basically take the remaining cards you need for your hand, multiply by 4 after the flop and 2 on the river to see the likelihood you'll hit it.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: feevers]
    #26094216 -

Cheers for the reply, I do use this rule. Where it becomes confusing is, say for example you are deep stacked and you have a flush draw so 9 outs. It would be roughly 36% chance of hitting it by the river, but only 18% on the turn? So you would probably assume you would be bet at again on the turn if you dont hit it. So, on the flop do you only call if the bet is approx 18% of the pot, or 36%?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Shadowman]
    #26099869 -

Thank you for these replies so far guys
Keep them coming
Any and all poker knowledge
I need it all

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26147971 -

Yeah, poker, unlike the stock market, is a zero-sum game, so it's much harder to make it consistently profitable. A mediocre poker player will lose money on average, but even a terrible stock trader will likely manage to turn a profit.

I love poker, but I only really play for fun. I try to view my buy-in as a sunk cost, and any profit I take home is just a nice bonus. Personally I prefer live poker, and feel like I'm more successful there. But I'm also far better at the psychological side of the game than I am at the raw statistics and that's a big part of why I prefer live poker.


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26148014 -

Some advice I recently got from a friend who's far better at poker than I was to think in terms of ranges of possible hands instead of specific hands. Try to ask yourself "what cards could they possibly have that they would do this with?"

For example, imagine you're playing against someone UTG who you know to be a decent player who understands which hands are good and when they're in a strong position etc. Let's say they bet 3x preflop, and then the flop comes 2h 3c 5s and they check to you. Obviously you have no idea what cards they have exactly, and it's kind of pointless to try and guess. But you know that they acted as if they were strong preflop, so 64 (which would at this point be the nuts but is pretty weak preflop) is probably out of their range. Now, the fact that they didn't bet after seeing the flop certainly seems to indicate that they didn't get the flop they were looking for, suggesting cards like AKs, AKo, or AQs which are strong preflop but don't give them anything with what's on the board.  However, they could still definitely have an overpair like AA, QQ, or maybe even JJ and act the way they did. Maybe they want to disguise their hand, or maybe they want to try to get a read on what you have by forcing you to act. Just because you don't have a perfect read of them doesn't mean you can't still get information from their actions and use that to inform your actions.

Also, if you want to try and take it to the next level, you can start thinking of your own hand in terms of your own range. Try to think about what actions you've taken and what range of possible hands they could be representing to the other players at the table. Now, obviously this is only really going to matter if you're playing against players who are good enough to know to pay attention to your actions and how they may modify your range, but if used right it can be very powerful to know what your opponents might think you have.


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26185686 -

Great replies I really appreciate them to

I’ve been playing RDR2 online poker a lot lol cause I’ve honestly gotten pretty good and learned at it but I’m nervous to actually go now and try one weekend
There’s some stuff around the game I still don’t understand like picking the right day to go
What does that even mean

Also
I mean... I’m not apposed to stock trading I just don’t understand it to well when I tried to learn it
If you guys have any advice and strategies that have worked well for you in trading, lmk here I’d be very grateful for the info

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26186276 -

Like I said, I only really play for fun and not for cash, so I prefer low-stakes home games (I have a group of friends I like to play with), so as such I'm not too familiar with the casino environment, but I've never heard about "picking the right day to go". I'm assuming it has to do with one of the many superstitions that seasoned gamblers tend to have. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but I tend to look down on superstitions like that.

In my opinion, a very big part of becoming good at poker is recognizing that it's ultimately a game of chance and you can't fully control the outcome. If you're serious about improving how you play, you simply have to accept that sometimes you'll do everything right and still lose money. (And, likewise, you can play terribly and still win.) This is often referred to as not being "results-oriented".

That being said, though, if you're feeling especially emotional (maybe you just lost a really big hand and you REALLY want to make that money back), it might be a good idea to avoid playing, as you'll be less likely to think objectively about the game and may make poor decisions. This is often called being "tilted". So, in that sense, if you wake up one morning and are just not feeling great about gambling, maybe it would be wise to take a rain check. Statistically speaking, you're just as likely to get good cards whether or not you think you will, but if you're unsure about gambling or think you may make poor decisions, I say trust your gut.



Alright, so now onto stocks.

First off, if all you want to do is make money follow these steps:

1. Download Robinhood and set up an account

2. Go to the search bar and type in "SPY", you should see a result called "SPDR S&P 500 ETF". Tap on this and buy as many shares as you can reasonably afford.

3. Delete Robinhood and forget about the stock market for 10-50 years

Congratulations! You are now more profitable than 70% of Wall Street investors.

(Obviously if you're outside of the US, you may have to modify this guide slightly, but buying and holding a market-tracking ETF is still a good general strategy. Also, I only really recommended Robinhood to be facetious, if you actually want to invest long-term like this, you're much better off getting an IRA or 401(k) at an established broker and buying SPY or a similar ETF there, usually you can buy most of the popular index funds commission-free in these types of accounts.)

However, if you're more interested in fucking around with stocks than you are with making the most money possible, just get a Robinhood account (contrary to what I previously said, Robinhood actually is pretty good for this), put a small amount of money in it (maybe $300-$1k), and go nuts! (With only a few caveats.) Don't day-trade unless you have to (excessive day-trading will actually risk your account being shut down by the SEC, but Robinhood by default will prevent you from doing this). And, stay away from options and leverage (I'm not even going to go into what these are, just know that if you had enough money for either of these to be a remotely good idea, you could also easily afford to hire an actual expert to help you manage your money who isn't just some rando on a shrooms forum). I'll try to give some general advice (as well as explain why I think the above strategy is the best for making money), but in my opinion the best way to learn is by doing, and as long as you follow those two simple rules, it'll be very hard to lose a significant amount of money. (although you should also be aware that making a lot of trades may make doing your taxes a real pain in the ass if you can't afford a CPA)







So, before I get to the actual advice, I think we should quickly go over what the stock market actually is. The stock market is essentially the living embodiment of our capitalist economy, a system Marx defined as the "existence of private property". Now, due to the fact that Marx wrote his treatise on capitalism over 130 years ago, in German, a lot of his terminology is... outdated, to say the least. As such, many people misinterpret this as meaning that capitalism is a system where people are allowed to own things. However, when you take into account the true meaning behind his words, his definition is actually quite apt. You see, when Marx refers to "private property", he doesn't mean the ownership of a toothbrush or a loaf of bread (this he would consider "personal property"), rather, he means the individual ownership of economic power (or, as Marx would call it, the "means of production"). Stocks are, in fact, the exact way by which economic power can be "owned" under capitalism, and the stock market is simply the forum in which this economic power is traded. And, in fact, the stock market works just like any other market, those "playing the market" seek to profit off of fluctuations in the prices people are willing to buy and sell certain commodities at. The only difference is that, in the stock market, the "commodity" is a share of control over the global economy.

Now, this is all very abstract and philisophical, and although I promise that abstract view of the stock market will be important later, for now let's take a more practical look at it. Say you and a couple of friends have a business idea. You noticed that your town doesn't have a cheap source of furniture, despite being situated right next to a large lumber mill. You realize that, if you were to build a factory in an empty lot, you could purchase lumber from the lumber mill and mass-produce furniture that you could sell to your neighbors for a nice profit. However, you don't have nearly enough money to afford this plot of land, much less to build a factory, hire skilled workers, and keep the lights on long enough to make your first sale. You need an investor. After asking around, you find a rich man (let's call him Jim), who agrees that your venture will be profitable, and offers to give you enough money to set up your factory in exchange for 30% of your furniture company. You incorporate, and your new company is split up into quanta of ownership called "shares". Jim gets 30% of the shares, and you and your friends get the rest. You build the factory and very quickly start making money. That money (and the factory itself) is collectively owned by all of you, according to how you distributed the shares, and you can collectively decide (in a manner described by the articles of incorporation) how the corporation is run and what is done with its funds. You can even decide to start paying yourselves out of the company's coffers (this practice is called paying "dividends" to a company's shareholders). You could also sell your shares of the company to someone else for a quick profit.

And that brings us to a practical description of the stock market. In a sentence, the stock market is a public exchange where shares of control over corporations can be bought and sold. Not all corporations are "publicly traded" (i.e. their shares are bought and sold on a public exchange), but most of the big companies you're familiar with probably are.

So, as a stock trader, your goal is to make money by buying and selling stocks on one of these public exchanges (most likely the New York Stock Exchange, abbreviated as NYSE). In the simplest view of things, you want to buy a stock on the exchange, and then sell it at a higher price than you bought it for. In general, the way you'll do this is by assessing the stock's underlying value and comparing it to the stock's price. Now, although there certainly are objective things about a company that can make its shares more or less valuable (e.g. profitability, potential for growth, etc.), but "value" is an inherently abstract and nebulous concept, as ultimately stocks are only as valuable as the price somebody is willing to pay for them. The longer you trade stocks, though, the better you'll get at recognizing when the market is over-valuing or under-valuing a stock.

One recent example from my own trading experience was when Texas Instruments, a very solid semiconductor company, released a negative earnings report (i.e., they told the public that they'd made less money than they had in the previous financial quarter) during a time when investors were very worried about economic collapse. The stock's price plummeted. From my previous experience, I was confused, since I knew that TI was a good company and I'd seen plenty of companies decrease in profit by far more than TI and have their stock prices fall less. This made me suspicious, so I downloaded TI's earnings report and started looking through it, to try and see why investors were dropping it like a hot potato. Upon reading the report, I realized that the reason that TI had been less profitable this quarter was that they paid off a large amount of payroll debt (companies will often elect to take on debt to pay their employees instead of paying them with cash from their coffers, the idea being that they can instead invest this capital in ventures that will provide greater returns than the loan's interest). In fact, TI's gross earnings had increased from last quarter, and if you ignored the loan payment (which would be a one-time expenditure), their operating costs had decreased as well. Seeing that the market had clearly overreacted to TI's earning's report, I bought shares in TI and, about a week later, the stock price jumped back up past what it was before the earnings report and I made a nice profit.

If every person trading on the stock market was perfectly rational and fully informed, then the market would at all times provide an exact representation of each individual stock's value and it would be impossible to make any money off of short-term trading. As the previous example illustrates, however, that is hardly the case. Human beings are emotional and irrational beings, especially where their money is concerned. And, even the best computational trading algorithm frequently makes mistakes. So, there's plenty of room to profit off of other people's mistakes. In other words, unlike investing, short-term trading is a zero-sum game. If you make money on a trade, it means that somebody else could have made that money and you made it instead of them. So, how do you make sure you're on the winning side of as many trades as possible? To paraphrase a quote I once heard, to make money on a trade, you have to either be lucky, outsmart the competition, or be the first one to act on new information. Now, unless you have the resources of a massive investment firm, you're probably never going to manage to be the smartest or the first person to act on new information in the market. But, trust me, there are plenty of very dumb and very slow people out there you can still profit off of.

Now, there's no cut-and-dry formula I can give you for how to make money on the stock market (and if I had one, I certainly wouldn't be giving out for free to random people on the internet), but I can tell you that the market almost always overreacts. If a stock starts dropping, people will sell it purely out of the fear that it will keep dropping, and likewise if a stock is climbing people will buy it in the hopes it climbs further. If you see something happening in a stock's price, ask yourself why you think it's happening. Did the company release a negative earnings report? Was there a recent shortage of the product the company supplies? Did a cat walk across a hedge fund manager's keyboard? You can never know for sure, but do your best to figure it out and then ask yourself if you think the stock is at a reasonable price given the underlying cause for the market fluctuation. If it is, wait a while until the market inevitably reaches an unreasonable price, and then buy or sell accordingly. This is obviously a difficult thing to do, and I can virtually guarantee you that you will make mistakes, especially when you're starting out. But, the longer you trade, the more you'll start to get an eye for these sorts of things. And, pretty soon, you'll notice your account balance slowly inching up.

However, although it's relatively easy to be profitable while trading, due to the zero-sum-game nature of the market, it's actually extremely difficult to be more profitable than the market as a whole (the quantity by which your returns exceed those of the entire market is called "alpha", and is often used as a benchmark of the skill of investors). So that's why, at least for the majority of your investment portfolio, I highly recommend investing in market-tracking index funds like $SPY.

I suppose I should probably explain what an ETF is, if I'm going to recommend you buy into one. An ETF, or exchange-traded fund, is a fund comprised of a collection of stocks that's then bundled into individual shares of the fund and sold on public exchanges with a small fee. (Note that this management fee is an inherent part of the ETF and is different from commission. As such, you don't actually 'pay' the fee directly, as you would with commission, but rather it's priced into your share of the ETF.) In the case of $SPY, these stocks are selected to approximately follow the S&P 500 market index, but there are a variety of different ETFs available, for example ones comprised of stocks from a specific industry, or inverse ETFs that are designed to go up when a certain section of the market goes down, and many more. Now you could, obviously, just buy all the stocks in an ETF yourself and not have to pay a management fee, but this would require a ton of capital to do, so ETFs provide an affordable way to invest your money in a very diversified way, and without all the hassle and research involved in trying to design a well-diversified portfolio. Why spend 2 months researching stocks to build a portfolio containing hundreds of individual stocks when you could take 2 seconds to buy an ETF that, even with the management fee, will perform just as well as (if not better than) your custom-built portfolio.

Now, you might be asking yourself why a diversified portfolio matters. The reason is quite simple, really, when you keep in mind the abstract definition of the stock market I brought up earlier. If you buy a single stock, you're investing in the company that stock partially controls. If that company fails, that share of control becomes worthless. Nobody's going to pay for the right to partially control Blockbuster. But, if you invest in a market-tracking ETF (or build a sufficiently diversified portfolio that represents the market as a whole), then you aren't really investing in any individual companies, you're investing in the stock market itself, i.e. you're investing in capitalism itself.

And capitalism, as a system, is built around perpetual growth. That's what I mean when I say that investing isn't a zero-sum game. To go back to the example of your hypothetical furniture company, you weren't just pulling profit out of thin air. I mean, sure, you were selling your furniture for more than it cost to make it. So, although it's certainly true that your business venture is inherently exploitative, you aren't just buying the wood at a low price and selling it at a higher one. You're buying the wood and transforming it into furniture, a process that creates value. So, although every individual chair your company sells is part of a zero-sum trade (every dollar you make is a dollar out of somebody's pocket), your company is still fundamentally adding value to the global economy. Maybe the access to cheap furniture will allow some other enterprising individual to build a hotel in your town, a hotel that will manage to take your furniture and make far more money off of it than you made from selling it to them. Even though in this situation, your company is the "loser" of the zero-sum trade that is your chair being sold (every dollar the hotel makes with your chair is a dollar you hypothetically could have made had you kept the chair), you are both still able to profit because you both add value at different steps along the production line.

So, if you invest in the market as a whole you are essentially investing in the economy as a whole. And while it's certainly true that the world's economic output can decrease (that's what recessions are, fundamentally), as a whole, due to the intertwined natures of capitalism and human greed, the economy will tend to grow. And, as such, investing in the economy as a whole is a very safe bet. In fact, even in an absolute worst case scenario. Let's say you invested in your 20s in a fund tracking the S&P index in 1928 right before the Great Depression, and then divested 45 years later when you were ready to retire, right after the economic crash of the 70s. You still would have come out ahead of inflation. That's because although the market certainly has its ups and downs, the global market as a whole always trends upward. So, for long-term investing, as long as you're sufficiently diversified (e.g. if you invest in a market-tracking ETF) and wait for a sufficiently long time, you will see positive returns. At least, provided global capitalism as a whole doesn't collapse. But, if that were to happen it's not like your money would be worth anything anyway, so either way you're better off investing it.

So, anyway, that's my very long-winded way of saying "invest in index funds unless you just really want to play around with stock trading, in which case make sure you only fuck around with a small percentage of your overall portfolio." I hope it was at least somewhat helpful


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"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26193837 -

I make money at online poker.

Live poker is easier, as long as the rake isn't stupid (non-stupid is something like 5% with some kind of cap on it like $5 or so). Online is a good place to practice for live, and is easier to fit into your lifestyle.

Harrington on Holdem might be still be a good introduction, but the other books listed earlier are hopelessly out of date, mostly written by TV pros who weren't beating the games even when they were written.

I'd start by read the articles on thepokerbank.com - there is a little bit on each topic so it will give you an idea of what people are talking about when they talk poker strategy.

Ed Miller is pretty good - he released the first half of his Poker's 1% book for free as a way to drum up interest in the other half. Grinder's Manual by Peter Clarke "Carroters" is probably the best book once you've got the basics.

I mostly consume audio content on my commutes. Consider listening to the Thinking Poker podcast right from from start (you can skip the interviews and go straight to the strategy hands to get through more).

I don't really calculate pot odds to make a call, unless we are on the river. Particularly when you are in position, you are not drawing to a spade or an ace or whatever, the main thing you are doing is drawing to a check. If villain checks to you on the next street and you bet he'll fold, so very often you can call with nothing if the situation (e.g. board texture) tells you that's likely to happen. The fact that you might improve from bottom pair to two-pair, or might hit an overcard or flush is a nice bonus of course.

Regarding HUDs the best sites to play on allow name changes so HUDs are useless. Also, you mostly can't table select any more to be with fish. Sites that still allow those kinds of sharking are generally full of sharks.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26329071 -

I play poker (offline) and have a written strategy. However, I find once I start playing I just lose control often my chip stack as well. Lots of discipline is needed to be successful at poker, not just a winning strategy.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: baronmushroom]
    #26329200 -

baronmushroom said:
I play poker (offline) and have a written strategy. However, I find once I start playing I just lose control often my chip stack as well. Lots of discipline is needed to be successful at poker, not just a winning strategy.



^^^

A guy I played with a lot used to keep asking me what my plan was for each hand. I'd always answer "uh idk I just waited until it was my turn to bet and then decided what to do based on the situation was in". His response: "you should always know what your plan is before it's your turn to act, and then act. Doing otherwise just lets your emotions come into play. Know what possible cards could come with the flop/turn/river and how they might change your situation. Based on that, and what I do, you should know in advance what the proper action is."

I've been trying to view the game more like he does, as a purely strategic game, and my winnings have been steadily increasing ever since.


--------------------
"We cannot command nature except by obeying her."

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: turbulentflow]
    #26329364 -

Didn’t see the last three replies thank you for all that guys very helpful

So your saying make money at online poker , but live poker is easier. What does this mean
Is cheating a big problem with online ?
And doesn’t not being able to see what they are doing or get the vibes and what not
Really be there to make a decision
Not inhibit you ? ( never played either for real money so I’m genuinely asking )

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26348080 -

Live poker has far worse players. It's not that easy to find time to go and sit with them when you have a job, young family etc. so I mostly play online.

No tells cuts both ways, they can't get a tell on you. You just use the other ways of making decisions, like what the cards are and the action up to this point.

Try to see if they're telling a consistent story or not. For example if you play in a game where people mostly check middle pair on the flop, but this time the players bet, so they might have top pair or better (we can say they're representing top pair). If the middle card on the board pairs and they bet again, they can't represent that they just made trips, because that would have checked and top pair (which is now 2-pair including the one on board) would check here. They probably have either nothing at all, or a set/2 pair on the flop which has now become a full house - I'd want to call here for example - even with A-high.

Also read about and understand the Ace-King-Queen game. The basic idea is to think about what strategies you would use if you played a game of poker where each person got one card only, and there were only 3 cards in the deck. There is usually a further restriction that the dealer can only bet or check, and the other player can only call or fold (or check if checked to). The exact strategy depends on the size of the bets and antes, but the basic idea is you always bet with an Ace (because you might get called) and always check with a King (because you'll always get called by better and never by worse) and sometimes bet with a Queen (because you might get him to fold and win the antes). The other players should always call with an Ace (because it's always best), always fold with a Queen, and call sometimes with a King (if he always calls then the other player should never bluff Queens so calling would always be a loss, but if he never calls then the other player will always bluff his queens and have bluffs half the time (as he also bets Aces) - meaning calling would be profitable, so the correct strategy is somewhere in between).

A lot of people (including online but especially live) are betting with the equivalent of a King in that game and they are folding out worse and giving away money to better hands. They justify it with reasons that don't relate directly to money, like I had to win the hand, I had to see where I was at etc. Don't do that yourself.

The other thing is the morality of bluffing. Bluffing is an essential move in the game and is not equivalent to lying or something like that.
If on the river would you bet half-pot with the best 30 hands and also with your worst ten hands you might get there with, your opponent should call with anything in that top 30, fold anything in the bottom 10, and has balanced odds (he's also getting 3-1 return on the call) for whether to call or fold with any hands in between, depending on tells or whatever. Let's say you never bluff though, the opponent should only call with hands that can beat at least 1/4 of your betting hands, equivalent to your top 22. If the opponent only calls with the equivalent hands to your top 22, well there is no point betting with anything worse than your 11th best hand as the lower ones will get called by better most of the time (actually this depends a bit on the exact hands he could get there with but the point basically stands). If you're never betting with anything worse than your top 11 hands, then the opponent should only be calling with his very best 7 or so hands and so on....
Essentially the game breaks down entirely without players "balancing" their "value" bets with bluffs. Therefore bluffing is not lying, it's just a normal move in the game and don't feel any morality about it. You'll give off fewer tells that way too.


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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26352982 -

Online poker is flooded by bots and cheaters. Live poker is easier but you play less hands. Its all about bankroll management

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: drbufo]
    #26355562 -

See that’s what worries me is the idea of the bots and cheater
Btw great post and information thank you - @testx3

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26358820 -

I’m gonna go with an experienced friend this weekend and give it a go , reading and watching tons, and practicing with good people,  in the mean time
But tell me
So I’m not obviously a noob to those around , what do I do in the physical establishment itself ?
I’ve never gambled at a professional casino ,so I know I call and reserve ahead of time cause it’ll be busy , but when I get there do I need to check in any where ? Or just go up to the table ? Who do I give my money to buy the chips ect like what is the basic set up when I get there

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26360435 -

Tripsten said:
I’m gonna go with an experienced friend this weekend and give it a go , reading and watching tons, and practicing with good people,  in the mean time
But tell me
So I’m not obviously a noob to those around , what do I do in the physical establishment itself ?
I’ve never gambled at a professional casino ,so I know I call and reserve ahead of time cause it’ll be busy , but when I get there do I need to check in any where ? Or just go up to the table ? Who do I give my money to buy the chips ect like what is the basic set up when I get there



Depends on the place. Usually best is to go to the poker room manager/supervisor and say you reserved or ask for a seat e.g. "Hi, I'm new here and I'd like to play $1/$2 No Limit Holdem", (this also depends on the jurisdiction, where I am you can't enter a gambling place without checking in first - they make sure you're not on the national self-exclusion list or in receipt of government benefits). Generally you buy chips from the poker dealer rather than from the cage. I wouldn't worry that much about looking like you have little experience with live poker. They still don't know how much or how little you have played online. Also if you have an idea of how they're going to play against you as a noob (will they bluff more often than normal, bluff less often?) then you know what to adapt to - you're one step ahead of their playing style.

Other than that, just do what others do.

Read up on the "1 chip rule". Application may vary but essentially if the bet to call is 800, unless you verbalise a bet then your chip movements are interpreted as follows:
1 chip = call - regardless of whether it is a 100, a 1000 or a 5000.
just enough chips = call so for example 2x 500 is a call
extra chips = raise so for example 2x 1000 = raise.
under-raise depends - so for example 2x500+1x100 is not a full raise (the minimum is to raise to at least 1600 here), whether it is rounded up or down (i.e. whether you are obliged to take back the 100 and then wait for change from the dealer or whether you are obliged to add a further 500 to make a full raise) varies depending on the house rules and the amounts.
If there is nothing to call then any amount of chips you put in is a bet.

Also read up on string-betting. If you haven't verbalised your action then only the first chips you put in count. (e.g. the bet is 1000, you want to raise to 4000 you take out four chips and hold them over the table, instead of dropping them together one drops earlier and hits the table - your action is over, you called so tough. Next time prepare the 4 chips behind the line on top of each other and slide them out in one motion)

The above rules might seem harsh to new players, and as a noob you'll probably trip up at least once, but if there weren't such rules to clearly interpret what the final action was as soon as something happened, then the place would be full of sharks doing things like "I call your 1000 (waits to see reaction, other player seems relieved) and raise another 3000" and so on - so it's actually the less regular players it is designed to protect. Generally all of this comes down to not letting people make part of their action before it's confirmed what the rest of it is and even if there is anything else.

Personally I prefer to just verbalise all my action, e.g. "raise to 3000", "fold", "call". Also never give the dealer a winning hand until the pot is being pushed to you - you avoid problems like who folded first, there being another player still in the hand you forgot about etc.

I'm not really one for tells, but the most reliable one I know of is that when the flop is all one suit, if a player looks at his hand, he's doing so to check if he has 1 (or 0) of that suit, he never has the flush because he would remember the suit of a suited hand (unless of course he's acting because he knows and also thinks you know about this tell - which as a noob you shouldn't).

The other one is "look left" pre-flop, people who are not playing the hand because they are going to fold often make it pretty obvious because they don't care about keeping it a secret. Sometimes you know you're effectively playing on the button when you're not and you can raise and take down a pot that by rights should have been contested between the blinds.

Get an easy remember starting hand chart (you can't consult it at the table), so for example part of mine would be, on the button any two cards the same suit and greater than 7. One to the right of the button same but must be greater than 8. Two or three spots to the right of the button, any two suited cards greater than 9 and so on. Work out something like the above for pairs, suited aces, unsuited aces, suited others, unsuited others and stick to it - avoid the temptation to play a lot of weak hands.

Edited by testtesttest (12/04/19 06:02 AM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26366915 -

ID was expired lol and I lost that white paper for it ( didn’t even think of it cause where I live every place either knows me or just doesn’t care ) so they didn’t let me in

Lol

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26371002 -

I was asked by PM for more clarity on the 1-chip rule.

The fundamental principle is that, to prevent sharks "shooting angles", a player's whole move is supposed to be made at once and not made in stages. Therefore, when a person puts chips out there is a rule to determine how that should be interpreted in one specific way only.

Situation 1
Let's say we reach the flop with two players, A and B.

Player A puts out a 500 chip, or five 100 chips, doesn't matter - it's clearly a bet of 500, not a check, and not a bet of anything more or less. He isn't allowed to add on more chips or take some off after he sees how people react to the bet.

It gets interesting now with the action of player B.

If he puts out a 500 that's clearly a call.

If he puts out 2x500 that's clearly a raise to 1000.

If he puts out a single 1000 chip then that might not seem clear, but the rule usually is that this is interpreted as a call. The dealer will generally just give change in this situation and deal the turn card. Players frequently need change in games so this way is much quicker than requiring them to do anything else.

Situation 2.
The bet to call is 1200, you have only some 5K chips and some 100s.

It's tempting to put out the 5K chip and two 100s in order to make it easier for the dealer to give change, but that ought to be interpreted as a raise to 5200. The correct way to call using only chips would be to slide out the single 5K chip. If instead you put in a single 100 chip it's interpreted as a call too. What I would generally do in this situation is slide out the 5K chip, and then once the action has moved on, place the two 100s just behind the line (i.e. on your side of the line) so that when the dealer comes to give change he can do it quickly.

It's IMHO best to just verbalise your action (assuming you can speak a language that's in use at the table, but that's usually English plus whatever the local language is), by saying "CALL", "RAISE TO 5000" before you put any chips out. In that case your verbalised action is binding and you're bound to follow though by putting the chips out to match it - obviously you can't change it by doing something different with chips.

If you're very nervous you might worry about giving off a tell through verbalised action though.

If in situation 1, you wanted to raise to 1000 but you only had 1K chips, then you would have no choice but to verbalise the action.

I think there are sometimes rules to prevent angle-shooting on the lines of saying "RAISE TO" (waits to see reaction) "1500" as again it's basically a move in two stages instead of one. I think in that situation you would be bound to make a minimum raise only but I'm not sure.

One more related thing is that if you turn over your cards without making it clear what you're doing then that's normally interpreted as a fold - so watch out to verbalise call or put chips out first if that's what you want to do. I nearly lost a hand like that once though they let me get away with it that time as I so clearly had a very strong hand. It's said that Johnny Chan in the final hand of the 1988 WSOP (the hand featured in the film Rounders), made this error although this rule wasn't enforced against him, probably also because he had the nuts so his intention was clear.

Edited by testtesttest (12/09/19 02:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26371465 -

I used to play poker full time for a living, but I could only make consistent good money when playing live tournaments and cash games. Online poker is about grinding and it destroys you.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: eLeSDenes]
    #26372628 -

Ohhhh ok I see
I get what your saying now
At first I had thought you were maybe describing some kind of chip language lol like were certain gestures or chips played a certain way means some kind of function
But I got you , only makes sense anyhow

And Denes, did you win more than you lost you would say ? And wdym by online is a lot of grinding

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26372812 -

Yes, live games are usually very profitable if you can exploit people's weaknesses. I was making quite good money (more than losing, actually I was living from my winnings for years), but it is like a full time job as one tournament can easily last 8hours.
But to get to that level, I had to read many many books, play a lot, review hands, participate in forum discussions...

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: eLeSDenes]
    #26372952 -

Nice he’ll ya :smile:
I certainly don’t think poker success will come from no work , or is even common at all
I just know some people really end up finding good money in it and I enjoy the game in general so I figure why not see if I’m one of them

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26374544 -

———

Edited by Tripsten (12/11/19 03:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26374664 -

—————

Edited by Tripsten (12/11/19 03:18 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26501063 -

Damn , the only problem is listening to your body when it’s time to walk honestly, I’ve been liking roulette more and more

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26503457 -

Here’s a question , I’ve been in the casino a lot lately and things are going really well , but people keep telling me if I go in often and keep winning then eventually they are going to like make me lose or something , is there any truth to that ? And does a card membership play into that ? Cause I been thinking about getting one but isn’t it just. Way to track a player then ?

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26515827 -

Which people are saying that? What is a card membership?

If you consistently (i.e. not just luck) win a lot at games other than poker (particularly blackjack) the casino will ban you. If you win at poker they don't care because it's money from the other players.

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest]
    #26577793 -

Eh nothing, just superstition amongst players I learned
I been doing super good
But I worry I’m become pretty addicted to it lol
Before the virus stuff I was going anywhere from 3-5 nights a week
But it’s like idk I’m winning

Edited by Tripsten (04/04/20 05:49 PM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: Tripsten]
    #26669952 -

Ok. Stay away from the roulette though.

I sometimes say that playing poker is the opposite of gambling (at least playing winning poker is the opposite of gambling).

The mental things that make roulette fun are the things that lead to bad poker play.

What in the sports and casino world is called "betting" is actually more equivalent to a "calling" in poker. You have your odds and you put the money in to see if you win, like making a call in poker. Every time you put money on a roulette table it's like calling an all-in when you don't have odds to hit.

Edited by testtesttest (05/14/20 04:02 AM)

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Re: Online vs Offline Poker [Re: testtesttest] * 1
    #26730781 -

I’ve played poker professionally on and off for almost 20 years. The poker explosion in the 2000s made the game extremely difficult to play for a living. It was free money for a couple years until the fish and fad chasers burnt out and the rest got it down to a science. The general skill level now even in live 1-2 games is easily 5x better. A soft game now is one I wouldn’t have wasted time playing in 2004.

It’s still beatable but you need to be very good and lucky on top of it. You can play for 12 hours and the whole outcome could be determined by one hand. I can’t even tell you how many times I played near perfectly all day, finally got all my money in where I was 85%+ favorite and lost. Skill will get you into this big pots with a huge edge, but you need luck to actually win it. It used to be that a skilled player was almost a lock to make money but now the edges are so small that you can be a winning player and still lose if the few key hands go wrong.

I also count at blackjack. You cannot do this online.
Counting is extremely easy I could teach a 10 year old in 15 minutes. The thing is to be able to do it automatically while not looking like you’re counting. You need to be able to glance at the cards while carrying on a conversation and know the count.

Blackjack is different from no limit poker in that there is a correct play every time. The key to both is hand volume. Anything can happen in a 100 hour block. Don’t think you’re a genius because you’re winning everyday for a week. It WILL turn on you eventually. You need to have the bankroll and stomach to ride out the variance.

Online poker you’re better off playing a few smaller games. Say you’d normally buy in for 300 at a 1/2 live game. Online I would rather play four .25/.50 games with 75 dollars each. Again it comes down to hand volume. The more hands you see the more likely you are to have consistent wins.

As for anything besides poker and blackjack, you will lose if you play. Again it’s a volume thing. Anything can happen short term. You might win at slots or roulette for three weeks straight, but you’re having a streak of good luck. If you continue to play you will lose everything. There is no skill in these games that make it possible to beat them. A super common mistake I see all the time is mistaking luck for skill.

You are not good a craps, I promise you. You are not good at roulette. You do not have a system figured out for slots. You’re getting extremely lucky and you will lose everything very soon.


--------------------
LAGM2020

Edited by A.k.a (06/09/20 08:41 AM)

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