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why weight matters * 1
    #26132879 -

why weight matters.


every mushculturalist in it longer than a single project learns to wonder how efficient their process is. specifically, how much produce should we get from how much resource investment. for things like this, spawn to sub ratio, etc how do we decide what matters?

in general, we discuss efficiency in terms of dry weight of mushroom to (myco)quart of spawn. dry weight because most of the produce ends up dried, and it's more reliable than wet weight. (myco)quart, because that's the de facto standard of measure round these parts. the trusty quart mason jar.

but quart, myco or otherwise, is volumetric. a quart of this grain weighs differently than a quart of that grain. further, a quart of this grain weighs differently than a quart of the same, more fully hydrated grain.

see here, jack's prototypical example.



here we have the very popular race horse oats on the one hand, and whole brown rice on the other. these jars were produced in similar fashion. they are only remotely the same volume. there's about 20% more oats than rice, by volume, in this picture. clearly, discussing efficiencies between these two jars would be apples to oranges. or perhaps, oats to rice.

but wait, there's more. the jar of oats pictured here was one of ten, for which 4.5 lbs of oats were prepared. meanwhile, a full five pounds of rice were prepared to get ten of those. and in each case, perhaps because jack is on the spectrum, grain was distributed between the jars by weight to within about half an ounce. this means that the picture appears to show about 20% more oats, but it is in fact about 11% more rice. and i don't know where the line is drawn between pint and mycoquart, but it could be right in there somewhere. given this, it seems to make useless any comparison of efficiencies between different grains on a volumetric basis.

further still, it's not at all clear that direct weight comparisons between grains are of much value either. in the oats vs rice example, how much of the oats dry weight is comprised of the presumably much less nutritious hull, compared to the rice which has had all its hulls removed?

but leaving aside that consideration, let us examine a more practical matter. see here direct, side by side comparisons of whole plates of pan. cinctulus, divided between rice and oats. none of these jars were shaken, except at inoculation time.

     
 

observe the clear trends. not only does the fungus move more quickly thru the rice, but indeed, the mycelium spread from many more inoculation points, without any extra effort cutting up the agar into smaller pieces. that is, the mycelium recovered and spread much more strongly, and since the volume per weight is much lower, the mycelium has less ground to cover overall. full, seemingly effortless colonization in under two weeks. i have noted similar with pan. cyans, ps. galindoi, and ps. tampanensis as well. haven't compared with cubes, since i'm not really into cubes these days.

sounds like i'm making a case for using rice for various reasons, but that really isn’t the point im trying to make. i simply mean to say i think it's clear that comparisons of spawn ratio, yield efficiency, and other measures on a volumetric basis between different grains are basically meaningless.

meanwhile, i invite anyone used to using different grains to make similar comparisons. how much dry weight of grain per jar, how quickly does it colonize, how well does the mycelium recover from inoculation, etc?

but really, i just wanted to post up to say welcome back, shroomery. missed ya.


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26132889 -

:rockon: missed your input around here.  Awesome post, glad to see ya back


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


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Re: why weight matters [Re: Psicomb]
    #26132903 -

:hellyeah:

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26132914 -

J. Jack Flash said:
i simply mean to say i think it's clear that comparisons of spawn ratio, yield efficiency, and other measures on a volumetric basis between different grains are basically meaningless.

meanwhile, i invite anyone used to using different grains to make similar comparisons. how much dry weight of grain per jar, how quickly does it colonize, how well does the mycelium recover from inoculation, etc?


I thought the question of grain efficiency was more to do with colonization speed, and noc points etc, and once your grain of choice has colonized the substrate it will throw off what it will throw off once fully colonized given you provide ideal conditions.

Is the type of grain really that impactful on ending yields after all other factors are considered and accounted for? Superior nutrients from one grain to the next kind of a thing? I wasn't under the impression that was the main concern when it came to grain choice. I thought it was more about the colonization speed, and number of noc points etc.

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Funky Monkey]
    #26132937 -

While I don’t doubt that there is differences in nutrition profiles, having run the same clones on different media on many occasions, I can’t really say it makes a huge difference. For the most part getting axenic spawn has proven to be the more important factor. Generally I’m getting the same performance from rye wheat and WBS. Been rocking WBS a lot lately.


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Re: why weight matters [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26132967 -

That was my thinking too. Sweet.
I've been rocking with team WBS as well for the abundance of noc points. :rockon:



WORD OF THE DAY:

a·xen·ic
/āˈzēnik,āˈzen-/

adjective - BOTANY

relating to or denoting a culture that is free from living organisms other than the species required.



Nice one Pasty :thumbup:

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Funky Monkey]
    #26132985 -

:takingnotes:


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Wide Mouth 1/2 Pint No-Pour TEK
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Re: why weight matters [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #26133005 -

So you have a solid rice tek? I got like 20lb with bugs goin to waste :begger:


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Never give up, never surrender.

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Failboat]
    #26133278 -

re: different grains, for sure i have no idea or reason to believe there'd be much difference on that basis alone. biology is too squishy. i think it would make a difference, at least enough to be misleading if say, i got a dry ounce first flush from what i called a "pint" of rice because i was actually using more of it, than someone who struggled to get one zo from a "quart" of oats or something, because they were actually using less of it. measuring by weight makes the comparison more meaningful, in my opinion.

anexic: dope ass word. when i run out of rice i'll be trying wbs.

rice prep: put rice in an excess of not hot water. bring to a bare simmer on medium heat, stirring occasionally. cook until rice breaks easily under your nail, and the chalky white inside is almost but not completely gone, about ten to twenty minutes. strain immediately, and dry on a screen or whatever you like. you'll think it's undercooked because it is. process as usual. the volume won't have increased very much. the point is to not let it get sticky. it's real easy to fuck it up, so take care. done right, it takes a little effort to break it up outta the pc, but after that it shakes just fine.


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26133331 -

Does the rice colonize faster because it's a better told or because it's not as nutritional as oats? And how can you tell?


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Everything you need in one spot.

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5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: why weight matters [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26133370 -

Bod, have you personally ever tried rice? Just out of curiosity. I know you like to run a lot of comparison type testing aka scientific method...

I have never tried it, although years ago I tried ground up white rice with pf tech and was a total failure. Probably due to the fact they were all inoculated with a spore syringe. The brown rice flour worked fine though.

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Subfinder]
    #26133436 -

I did when i started growing i hated rice tho. Maybe part of it was never getting the hang of it or dialing in the prep but why bother when something else worked immediately. For me i maximized on what worked well for me with little effort.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: why weight matters [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26134538 -

bodhisatta said:
Does the rice colonize faster because it's a better told or because it's not as nutritional as oats? And how can you tell?


personally, i think the rice does better wrt to colonization speed because the hull on the oats, (no pun intended i swear) is explicitly an obstacle to colonization. it's a protective seed coat doing what it does. no idea how the nutritional profiles between the two or any other grain compares to ideal for any given mushroom species, or how to figure that out.

it was pan cyans that led me back to rice. had a hard time getting oats to colonize, and the zen masters in the copelandia thread more or less agreed, pan cy tends to struggle on oats. so i went with what i already had, and the difference was night and day. i must add, so far the fruiting performance i've gotten between rice and oats leans heavily in oats' favor. but it could be as much the genetics as anything, since the rice trays weren't from the same print as the oats trays. butbut, i have some clones from the oats trays on rice right now, just about ready to spawn. we'll see in a week or so. ... i just went the long way around to illustrate how volume measurements are misleading. measurement by weight is just more reliable.

and yeah, i had a really hard time with rice before too. now i think it's just as easy as oats to prep. rice is a lot more expensive tho. for small timers like myself it's a non issue. five bucks for ten jars, for enough pan cyans to last an eternity. i spend more every month on sudafed.


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26134632 -

I'm curious about popcorn vs wbs

By weight popcorn weighs more, a lot more.

Would 8L of popcorn produce the same as 8L of wbs given a 1:1ratio?

Or are there nutritional factors that weigh in, which is more nutritious popcorn or wbs?

Your write up was a bit mind boggling but I get what your saying about the difference in grains. I'm a cube guy myself, psilocybe isn't psilocybin....two different highs

Edited by Fun-G (08/13/19 10:48 PM)

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Fun-G]
    #26134642 -

Fun-G said:
I'm curious about popcorn vs wbs

By weight popcorn weighs more, a lot more.

Would 8L of popcorn produce the same as 8L of wbs given a 1:1ratio?

Or are there nutritional factors that weigh in, which is more nutritious popcorn or wbs?

Your write up was a bit mind boggling but I get what your saying about the difference in grains. I'm a cube guy myself, psilocybe isn't psilocybin....two different highs


Psilocybe is the genus I think while psilocybin and psilocin are the active alkaloids, i thought psilocybin breaks down into psilocin when ingested anyways though?


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Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

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Re: why weight matters [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26134650 -

fruiting conditions and genetics give the best flushes spawn is spawn wbs is the shit :rockon:


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HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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Re: why weight matters [Re: Fun-G]
    #26134894 -

Fun-G said:
I'm curious about popcorn vs wbs

By weight popcorn weighs more, a lot more.

Would 8L of popcorn produce the same as 8L of wbs given a 1:1ratio?

Or are there nutritional factors that weigh in, which is more nutritious popcorn or wbs?

Your write up was a bit mind boggling but I get what your saying about the difference in grains. I'm a cube guy myself, psilocybe isn't psilocybin....two different highs


interesting. popcorn is out of fashion these days for whatever reason. didn't even think of it. like i think the TCs were suggesting, nutritional differences between grains probably do not matter much. i'm not convinced the oat hull is equally nutritious as the bran and endosperm, or we could just use grain hulls as spawn. has this been tried? i wonder what proportion of the weight of the oats is the hull.

spawn is spawn, sure. if it's anexic. (dope ass word) i'll try wbs soon, and see how it compares, weight/volume. how much does bird seed expand in preparation? lots or little?


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26134988 -

I expands quite a bit. When I load up a qt jar halfway with wbs it turns almost into 2/3rds of a qt after a PC cycle and a shake to redistribute moisture


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


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Re: why weight matters [Re: Psicomb]
    #26136318 -

right on, psi. can you reckon how much it weighed when you started? and do you sift out the sunflower seeds like i read about people doing?


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along

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Re: why weight matters [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #26136492 -

Hmmm lemme think.. I typically get 30 jars out of a 20lb bag so I'm thinking somewhere 0.7lb dry wbs per jar.  I do rinse out (most) sunflowers


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (08/15/19 03:00 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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