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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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The placebo effect and LSD * 1
    #25850280 -

I'd like to share some thoughts, that unfortunately don't have an incredible amount of scientific backing, regarding the power of LSD and it's relationship with the placebo effect.

I've learned that in the weeks leading up to a planned trip on LSD that I can focus on a problem or have a goal in mind and it seems as if I pour my attention into whatever it maybe; spiritual seeking, revitalizing my mind or even building my relationship with my wife, I tend to have some sort of breakthrough or revelation regarding that specific subject.

With that being said I understand that placebos are used as a control in clinical trials of drugs. I'm assuming this is so that we can distinguish whether the drug is actually successful or if the placebo effect is the cause of improvement of symptoms or whatever that drugs goal is.

So I started asking myself why LSD has this unique ability to be deliberately purposed for breakthrough and the placebo effect came to mind. This is where I think it gets interesting.
Most psychedelic drugs seem to remove some sort of "filter".  The filter that is preconceived notions and the filter we experience reality through. They tend to "open your mind" or make you generally more receptive to ideas.

So I have a theory that most successful drugs are a synergy of the placebo effect and the chemical/physiological changes that occur in the body.
With that being said if LSD makes you more receptive and makes ideas generally more believable, could it be that LSD shares a very powerful relationship with the placebo effect?
To make the point more direct I believe that when we believe something, it increases the chances of what we believe to be manifested (the placebo effect) LSD makes information and ideas more believable in a way that even a ton of life experience can't seem to do. Together these to effects can manifest powerful lifesyle changes.

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: Revelation88]
    #25851750 -

No.

By definition, the placebo effect happens in the absence of a drug. Thus, it would be impossible for drug to enhance a placebo effect. If that happened, it would be a drug effect and not a placebo effect.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: badchad] * 1
    #25851992 -

Okay so let me rephrase. From what I understand the placebo effect seems to work solely on the premise that someone believes they are receiving some kind of treatment that's making them better. So this leads me to this line of thinking. If someone can show real physiological changes just because they believe they are recieving treatment, can LSD be used to help someone to believe they are getting better thus manifesting a response that actually does make them better. Namely in thought pattern centered mental illnesses. I was more or less using the placebo effect as evidence that merely believing you are getting better can in fact have some degree of positive results. Furthermore does the depth of the belief  change the effectiveness of the outcome. Thanks for the response and correction.

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: Revelation88] * 1
    #25852139 -

I get what you're saying, the general concept of the placebo effect can be and often is applied broadly and not just literally or clinically. Not sure why the previous poster wanted to challenge your wording instead of address the concept you're writing about.

I'd have to both disagree and agree.

I disagree in part because my first mushroom trip in my teens, I had zero knowledge of what to expect. I don't remember, but I probably didn't even know what psilocybin was at the time. I just wanted to giggle and see pretty colors. What I got instead was a reality shattering experience that shook me to my core and influences my life even to this day.

I do think though that these drugs make people especially suggestible. I was chatting with someone on here recently who talked about noticing how long-term LSD use can result in people developing some strange views that they believe to be true. I think a lot of it has to do with how powerful the experience is itself, having a thought during an experience that is that profound and that intense... it can feel like the thought carries far more weight and truth than it actually does. I could see how that could be beneficial, but also how it can lead someone to become deluded if they're prone to that kind of thinking to begin with.

I also think the weight and respect people assign to the substance can play a role. If they go into the experience thinking mushrooms are ancient teachers or LSD is a window to the soul, they may be far more likely to take to heart any messages they "receive" during the trip.

Quote:
Most psychedelic drugs seem to remove some sort of "filter".  The filter that is preconceived notions and the filter we experience reality through. They tend to "open your mind" or make you generally more receptive to ideas.


At the same time, they can allow you to view problems through a lens that is not tainted by many of the rigid and biased thought patterns of your sober brain. Getting a fresh look at something can lead to some real positive insights.

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: feevers]
    #25852750 -

I appreciate the insight. I've actually been bouncing this idea around with some buddies who are experienced and I've included in my assessment(in private conversations) that this didn't necessarily  have to be the case(regarding expectation projected into the experience) and i realize I didn't include that in the OP. However I do think this is an important thing to note. I had a very similar experience my first shroom trip and really didn't start assigning any sort of expectation until I had several experiences that I noticed I tended to work out issues I was having in my day to day day life and eventually I got more deliberately focused on using
Psychedelics as a tool. Its interesting you bring up shrooms. It seems like they tend to direct me towards things that I want aware if before or perhaps suppressing where as lsd seems to be a little but more controlled by my own thoughts.

The drugs ability to make people more prone to suggestion(even if its self inflicted) is really the topic of interest here and I'm glad you worded it that way.
I absolutely agree that it can do just as much bad as good and I've read about the placebo effect also causing negative symptoms as well as positive.

I'm especially interested in understanding how you can deliberately use these substances to implant and reinforce  positive thought patterns and break addiction cycles

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: Revelation88]
    #25853595 -

To get back to your question more directly, expectation influences how an individual responds to a drug (or lack thereof) so "yes" its entirely reasonable to you could influence LSD effects with prior instruction.

Lots of data support this. You've already touched on the placebo effect. Individuals can respond to an inactive drug if they think they may have received something. We can also influence the effects of an active drug by telling people what to expect.

For example, I can give you a particular drug, and you'll experience its effects (whatever those are). If I gave you the exact same drug a second time, but told you "this is a stronger version, or higher dose," it would influence how you responded.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: badchad]
    #25854497 -

badchad said:
No.

By definition, the placebo effect happens in the absence of a drug. Thus, it would be impossible for drug to enhance a placebo effect. If that happened, it would be a drug effect and not a placebo effect.


Drugs can cause a placebo effect if they're "causing" an effect that's not one it actually causes. Like tripping off weed


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: The placebo effect and LSD [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25855273 -

Furthermore, I'd like to know if there is a correlation between how much someone believes and how effective it'll be. To continue with that thought could lsd be used as a way to catalyze  the usefulness of other drugs?

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