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Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights
    #25828226 -

In the UK we've had a lot of debate about the case of a girl who was groomed, radicalised and went out to Syria at 15 years old to live what she believed was an islamic lifestyle as part of the so called islamic state. Her name is Shamina Begum. She was matched with someone to marry, a da'esh fighter. She had 2 children who have been killed and only a few days ago she gave birth to a third in a refugee camp in Syria. She is trying to get back for the safety of her child and because she fled da'esh. She is a British citizen and British alone, despite having parents of Bengali nationality. The government have announced they would strip her UK citizenship, effectively rendering her stateless - which is against international law. the UK claim that because her parents are Bengali, she has dual nationality therefore it isn't statelessness. This is bullshit and racist if you think about it. Its basically saying that all British citizens who have immigrant parents could have their citizenship stripped. That includes me but I'm white and its only been black and brown people this has happened to so far.

Shamina doesn't come across as very remorseful on the media, I'd say 90% of people are like mob screaming for her head despite her having renounced da'esh. NO ONE is suggesting she would just be free to live normally, she would face investigations and most likely imprisonment. Her child may very well be taken away. Bangladesh is saying shes nothing to do with them and ofc they are right.

Anyway I could speak at length about this and there are many other details I want to point out but its late here so will have to update another time. In the meantime, I shall expect the mob to come out with their pitchforks and agree that her rights should be taken away. Bear in mind that the government used her to get the public onside these new powers. Immigrant heritgage Britons are effectively second class citizens with this kind of action. What kind of precedent do you think this sets?

Too easily, people aren't seeing the complexity. They think "she was ISIS so fuck her forever".

This isn't just happening here. Trump has also said she will revoke the citizenship of a woman in a similar situation who was born in the US. There are hundreds of people who have returned from da'esh and of course its no easy issue but knee jerk reactions will destroy everyone's rights.

Will speak some more another time. Feel free to call me da'esh sympathiser or whatever you're going to call me.

OR actually contribute something constructive.
Would you strip the citizenship of these people?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from 02/21/19 08:16 AM until the end of time
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: Tipote] * 3
    #25828311 -

Agreed. I wonder if people understand just how many basic things require state citizenship? It's not just international travel - try to enroll in school, see a doctor, get a job, open a bank account, or buy a house. People who end up stateless live in a legal limbo that effectively puts an end to any possibilities of a normal life.

Any power you grant the government against your enemies is also power that can be used against you. We should not be willingly applauding any governments attempt to erode the institution of citizenship. I would hope that the "small government" crowd here will understand and agree.

The solution is for the UK and other western nations to accept that their citizens who ran off to join ISIS are still their citizens - their problem. We happily deport the criminals of other nations back to their countries of birth - the other side of that coin is accepting our criminal citizens abroad.

What sort of reception or punishment or rehabilitation these people deserve is a different discussion - but not only is it hypocritical and unethical to shrug off any responsibility for our criminal/terrorist citizens abroad, it is dangerous practice to allow our governments the power to withdraw citizenship from those deemed sufficiently degenerate.


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #25828453 -

So you wouldn't strip literal nazis of their citizenships?

I find that funny that people can be so agianst nazis, or white supremacists but at he same time show sympathy for terrorists. How could someone hate one form of terrorism but sympathize with another? Is it because one is white?  But either way you would think any logical person would hate both equally, and more so muslim extremists, due to their heavy media presence and brutality of covered attacks. And that fact that you literally had to get on a plane and join them. There was no gun to her head. She did it on her own terms. How could any person have sympathy for someone who left their haven and set out to destroy it? Even her own family is against her. She makes muslims and all refugees look bad. Isis and isis sympathizers hate western culture and its values and fight against it. That means they're fighting agianst you and me.
"Dont bite the hand that feeds you". That's what she and her supporters should be thinking about. The uk was gracious enough to accept her parents at the cost of the citizen, an investment if you will. They didn't ask of anything in return. One of their "investments" decided to defect and campaign against their very saviors.  Given that her parents were saved from a shitty situation, and that their daughter decided to defect and fight agianst her home country, i would think that warrants a citizenship removal. You left on your terms and you can stay there. Don't like it? Too bad. This is a cost to pay to send  a message that terror has no place in the country. Once you go, there's no going back. And i can drink to that any day:cheers:
In most cases i can sypmothize, but this fucking isis. What the fucks wrong with people

Edited by MagicMush123 (02/21/19 06:21 PM)

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #25828630 -

I provided two arguments for why - would be curious to see a response from someone who voted 'yes'.

The first is that since Canada, UK, and USA routinely deport criminal immigrants to their country of origin, it is both hypocritical and unethical to shrug off any responsibility for our own criminal/terrorist citizens abroad. Instead, the proper response is to bring our terrorist citizens home and let them face justice here.

The second argument is that it is a dangerous practice to allow our governments the power to withdraw citizenship from those deemed sufficiently degenerate. Even if we say "limit it to terrorists", the term 'terrorist' is deliberately vague. Indigenous land defence and environmental protests are presently considered as domestic extremism and eco-terrorism by the Federal Canadian government, for example. How are we to ensure the power to revoke citizenship won't be abused? Is the cathartic release of being able to say "You are no longer Canadian" to returning ISIS fighters worth even the slightest weakening of the institution of citizenship?


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25828794 -

I can see your points and agree with them but im not exactly sure that i can see the parallels in what you're saying. Environmental activism or other forms militant activism are easily recognized as terrorists and thats for demonization and jail time. Although in some cases they may actually be terrorists, but thats beside the point. There was never a call to pull their citizenship or to deport them. This isnt the 1600s, we dont exile people :lol: 
But in the case of foreign terrorism, where you're essentially abandoning your country to fight agianst your country, i feel that barring entry or citizenship removal is warranted. When you leave your country to fight against it, you re essentially abandoning your citizenship right? And if you have a mess of a country like Syria or whatever, what exactly is the harm in leaving them there, they kinda made their own bed right?
I feel the only reason why entry or citizenship removal makes sense, is because they're already out of the country. Barring entry makes total sense and citizenship removal was overboard, but i believe it was done for they wouldn't have to admit her entry. If a refugee or similar immigrant arrives and commits or attempts to commit terrorism, it also makes sense to strip their citizenship and deport them as well.
The reason why I don't see your parallels is that it doesn't make sense to do that to domestic terrorists, they're already in the country and usually native.  I couldn't ever see the government citizenship stripping or deporting environmental or militant activists. The public would never be behind it. I just dont think our governments would ever take such an extreme stance. No matter how conservative the current leader happens to be

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: MagicMush123]
    #25829220 -

MagicMush123 said:
So you wouldn't strip literal nazis of their citizenships?

I find that funny that people can be so agianst nazis, or white supremacists but at he same time show sympathy for terrorists. How could someone hate one form of terrorism but sympathize with another? Is it because one is white?  But either way you would think any logical person would hate both equally, and more so muslim extremists, due to their heavy media presence and brutality of covered attacks. And that fact that you literally had to get on a plane and join them. There was no gun to her head. She did it on her own terms. How could any person have sympathy for someone who left their haven and set out to destroy it? Even her own family is against her. She makes muslims and all refugees look bad. Isis and isis sympathizers hate western culture and its values and fight against it. That means they're fighting agianst you and me.
"Dont bite the hand that feeds you". That's what she and her supporters should be thinking about. The uk was gracious enough to accept her parents at the cost of the citizen, an investment if you will. They didn't ask of anything in return. One of their "investments" decided to defect and campaign against their very saviors.  Given that her parents were saved from a shitty situation, and that their daughter decided to defect and fight agianst her home country, i would think that warrants a citizenship removal. You left on your terms and you can stay there. Don't like it? Too bad. This is a cost to pay to send  a message that terror has no place in the country. Once you go, there's no going back. And i can drink to that any day:cheers:
In most cases i can sypmothize, but this fucking isis. What the fucks wrong with people



Well said.

I agree.

And yes, you make a good point. If this was a Nazi, people would go insane.

Fuck ISIS. Stay out.

:cheers:


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: MagicMush123] * 4
    #25829257 -

Because it sets a bad precedent for countries to shrug responsibility of their own citizens.

Canada has deported many foreigners accused of terrorism back to their countries of origin. What if these countries started following suit, revoked citizenship, and refused their reentry? Okay, so we we got rid of the handful of Canadians committing terrorism abroad, but now we're stuck with terrorists from around the world who can't be returned to their countries of origin. The flip side of deporting terrorist foreigners from our countries, is accepting the return of our terrorist citizens from other countries.

The extreme result of a breakdown of this international convention would be foreign governments putting all the undesirable citizens they have, shipping them off to another country, revoke citizenship status, and washing their hands clean. The international convention of sovereign states holding ultimate responsibility for their citizens is an important one because it protects us just as much as a country like Syria. We should not allow it to weaken even a little.


MagicMush123 said:
But in the case of foreign terrorism, where you're essentially abandoning your country to fight agianst your country, i feel that barring entry or citizenship removal is warranted. When you leave your country to fight against it, you re essentially abandoning your citizenship right?


The punishment for high treason against Canada is life imprisonment, not barred entry or citizenship removal. I think the existing punishment is not only sufficient, but preferable. Why do you think otherwise?


MagicMush123 said:
And if you have a mess of a country like Syria or whatever, what exactly is the harm in leaving them there, they kinda made their own bed right?


I imagine a lot of harm could come from revoking citizenship status of international terrorists instead of bringing them home to face justice. Unless you feel that we should start assassinating our citizens accused of terrorism abroad without trial (another dangerous precedent), than the result of revoking citizenship doesn't actually solve the problem, it just let's us claim it's not our problem anymore. Do you feel comfortable with the idea of leaving terrorists to their own devices in a foreign country? Just because we say it's not our problem anymore doesn't mean it won't come back to bite us in the ass.


MagicMush123 said:
The reason why I don't see your parallels is that it doesn't make sense to do that to domestic terrorists, they're already in the country and usually native.  I couldn't ever see the government citizenship stripping or deporting environmental or militant activists. The public would never be behind it. I just dont think our governments would ever take such an extreme stance. No matter how conservative the current leader happens to be


It's definitely a stretch, but it wouldn't be impossible. Both the RCMP and CSIS consider indigenous and environmental activists to be the biggest domestic security threat, and public stance can change, be swayed, or outright ignored. No one - not the anti-pipeline crowd, nor pro-pipine crowd - wanted Trudeau to pay billions for that unfinished pipeline but the government still went ahead with that deal. The protests against the Iraq war (in the USA) were the largest protests ever when they happened - didn't stop the government from continuing in its illegal invasion. You can't depend on the government listening to the will of the people.

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure every anti-terrorism law introduced post-9/11 has been misused and abused. The laws that weakened our rights in the name of fighting terrorism unsurprisingly were turned against us eventually. Why give them more ammunition?



The question I would pose to both you and XUL is this: what are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here? What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens? Personally, I see so much more risk of abuse than whatever cathartic benefit stripping citizenship poses. What benefits do you see coming from this decision that make this practice worth the risk of potential abuse?



And for the record: ISIS, nazi, or any other far-right extremists - my opinion stays same. Revocation of citizenship should not be our response.

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25829295 -

Quote:
People who end up stateless live in a legal limbo that effectively puts an end to any possibilities of a normal life.


How many people killed by ISIS and their supporters have any possibility of a normal life?


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 3
    #25829312 -

Perhaps you will engage in actual discussion, instead of continuing your attempts at witty one-liners. I've posted my arguments, now it's your turn to use your logical mind to either refute them or at least provide me with an argument in favour of revocation of citizenship for returning ISIS members.

Here, allow me to pose this question towards you too: what are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here? What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens? Personally, I see so much more risk of abuse than whatever cathartic benefit stripping citizenship poses. What benefits do you see coming from this decision that make this practice worth the risk of potential abuse?


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25829316 -

I don't think it's abuse when the citizen joined enemy ranks.

This isn't about a regular Muslim in everyday life. This is ISIS.


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25829326 -

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you could answer these questions directly:

  • What are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here?

  • What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens?

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25829344 -

She joined enemy ranks and called for American blood.

If she comes back, she should be treated as such.

As far as I am concerned, she is still the enemy and should be put into a military prison for questioning about Intel.

Perhaps Guantanamo


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL] * 3
    #25829353 -

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you could answer these questions directly:

  • What are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here?

  • What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens?


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25829364 -

Your questions are moot because she is not even a citizen.

Ms. Muthana’s father was a Yemeni diplomat, and children born in the United States to active diplomats are not bestowed birthright citizenship, since diplomats are under the jurisdiction of their home countries.

Mr. Pompeo said Ms. Muthana did not have “any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/world/middleeast/isis-bride-hoda-muthana.amp.html


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25829372 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Perhaps you will engage in actual discussion, instead of continuing your attempts at witty one-liners. I've posted my arguments, now it's your turn to use your logical mind to either refute them or at least provide me with an argument in favour of revocation of citizenship for returning ISIS members.

Here, allow me to pose this question towards you too: what are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here? What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens? Personally, I see so much more risk of abuse than whatever cathartic benefit stripping citizenship poses. What benefits do you see coming from this decision that make this practice worth the risk of potential abuse?


I will answer your highly complex question(s) after you answer my extremely simple question. I know it is difficult for you even though it is lopsided in your favor, as I want you to add 1 + 1 and you want me to do quadratic equations.


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL]
    #25829376 -

XUL said:
Your questions are moot because she is not even a citizen.

Ms. Muthana’s father was a Yemeni diplomat, and children born in the United States to active diplomats are not bestowed birthright citizenship, since diplomats are under the jurisdiction of their home countries.

Mr. Pompeo said Ms. Muthana did not have “any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/world/middleeast/isis-bride-hoda-muthana.amp.html


Presenting facts in a hand-wringing exercise does not seem fair. :tongue:


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL] * 2
    #25829403 -

XUL said:
I don't think it's abuse when the citizen joined enemy ranks.

This isn't about a regular Muslim in everyday life. This is ISIS.


She was born in the US. It doesn’t matter what your emotional response is. Her citizenship cannot be stripped. Rights exist to protect people we really don’t like, not people we agree with.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25829410 -

XUL said:
MagicMush123 said:
So you wouldn't strip literal nazis of their citizenships?

I find that funny that people can be so agianst nazis, or white supremacists but at he same time show sympathy for terrorists. How could someone hate one form of terrorism but sympathize with another? Is it because one is white?  But either way you would think any logical person would hate both equally, and more so muslim extremists, due to their heavy media presence and brutality of covered attacks. And that fact that you literally had to get on a plane and join them. There was no gun to her head. She did it on her own terms. How could any person have sympathy for someone who left their haven and set out to destroy it? Even her own family is against her. She makes muslims and all refugees look bad. Isis and isis sympathizers hate western culture and its values and fight against it. That means they're fighting agianst you and me.
"Dont bite the hand that feeds you". That's what she and her supporters should be thinking about. The uk was gracious enough to accept her parents at the cost of the citizen, an investment if you will. They didn't ask of anything in return. One of their "investments" decided to defect and campaign against their very saviors.  Given that her parents were saved from a shitty situation, and that their daughter decided to defect and fight agianst her home country, i would think that warrants a citizenship removal. You left on your terms and you can stay there. Don't like it? Too bad. This is a cost to pay to send  a message that terror has no place in the country. Once you go, there's no going back. And i can drink to that any day:cheers:
In most cases i can sypmothize, but this fucking isis. What the fucks wrong with people



Well said.

I agree.

And yes, you make a good point. If this was a Nazi, people would go insane.

Fuck ISIS. Stay out.

:cheers:


Yeah the us would never allow a Nazi to come to the US. Give him top secret security clearance and a ticker tape parade.



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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: XUL] * 3
    #25829412 -

Specifically, this thread was initiated by the revocation of Shamina Begum's UK citizenship, the country of her birth and only nation she held citizenship with. More generally this thread is a discussion on "returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights". The questions are central to the discussion.

Here, I'll even go first.

What are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here?

  • Keeps all terrorists out of the country.
  • Saves money by avoiding the costs of trial and imprisonment.
  • Allows for cathartic release of emotion by the general public who seek a cruel and unusual punishment in response to the cruel and unusual actions of ISIS fighters.


What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens?

  • Sets a precedent for other governments to do the same, resulting in stateless terrorists in our own country.
  • Continues the erosion of rights and freedoms in the post 9/11 world, in the name of anti-terrorism.
  • By washing our hands of any responsibility, we cannot ensure that these people are no longer free to plot more terror attacks.



Especially when we consider that the alternative (putting our terrorist citizens abroad on trial for their crimes and allowing them to receive their legal punishment) will provide the same basic benefit of punishing those who commit treason and terrorism without any of the same risk, the risk-benefit analysis is quite clear.

The only reason to continue supporting the revocation of citizenship for returning ISIS members after considering the risk-benefit analysis, is because you are being driven more by an emotional response than a rational one.

Okay, now your turn.


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Re: Returning da'esh members to their countries of origin and the resulting erosion of EVERYONE's rights [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25829419 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I will answer your highly complex question(s) after you answer my extremely simple question.


"How many people killed by ISIS and their supporters have any possibility of a normal life?"

Zero. Okay, your turn now.

  • What are the benefits of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens, over bringing them home to face justice here? 

  • What are the risks of allowing our government to revoke citizenship and bar entry to our citizens? 


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