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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25782187 -

DividedQuantum said:
I'm not sure humans are going to make it that far in their current form.


Maybe we wouldn't need to go anywhere if we could miniaturize ourselves down to the size of nanobots.

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Re: Space migration [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25782212 -

Interesting point. I think the perceived need to go elsewhere may need some examining. Is the notion of space colonization natural, or a psychological aspect of the dominant culture?

If we did not believe in unlimited growth and manifest destiny, would we be discussing these things?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25782323 -

Never underestimate the attraction of Space Babes:



We need new things to plug into. :naughty:


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Re: Space migration [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25782904 -

borg++

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25783392 -

DividedQuantum said:
Interesting point. I think the perceived need to go elsewhere may need some examining. Is the notion of space colonization natural, or a psychological aspect of the dominant culture?

If we did not believe in unlimited growth and manifest destiny, would we be discussing these things?



Well, if it can be shown that travel is a product of discontent then maybe colonization can be traced all the way back to 'Fear' which is a natural part of humanity's vulnerability, imo.

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Re: Space migration [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25783584 -

Or maybe even a better word would be 'anxiety.' The desperate belief that things would be different if only I were somewhere better or different. I'm not sure what that magic is that people hope to find on Mars. There's nothing there.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25783634 -

Hunter gatherers migrated with herds of food - both on the hoof and on the vine.
we were migratory for hundreds of millennia, only settling after agriculture, city states, and trading.

hunger and planning were bigger than fear as motivating causes in our ancestors movements over the majority of our past existence.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25783643 -

DividedQuantum said:
Or maybe even a better word would be 'anxiety.'...I'm not sure what that magic is that people hope to find on Mars. There's nothing there.


That's why I think "The Journey" should be the focus; we eat, travel and shop because of an innate discontent; something which the ingestion of drugs seems to alleviate.

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Re: Space migration [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25783652 -

redgreenvines said:
Hunter gatherers migrated with herds of food - both on the hoof and on the vine.
we were migratory for hundreds of millennia, only settling after agriculture, city states, and trading.

hunger and planning were bigger than fear as motivating causes in our ancestors movements over the majority of our past existence.



Hunter-gatherers weren't mobile because they wanted to get away from something, or go toward something better. They were not emigrants or immigrants. It was part of their ecology. I think the analogy is extremely poor for a number of reasons.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25784231 -

DividedQuantum said:
Scientific and exploratory missions to outer space make some sense. The talk about space colonization or migration just seems foolish to me. Going to Mars, if we decide we want to spend the money, makes some sense, although it's far from clear that it wouldn't be a waste of time. Notions of having people live there permanently seems somewhat stupid if indeed it is even feasible.

It must be stressed that scientific understanding has reached the point that there is very little or no scientific justification for a mission to Mars, for example. So that means the only real reason for going is for adventure. For the thrill of it.

Do you feel this justifies going? What are your thoughts about space travel, and/or migration to other planets?


We could end up with a lot of people on Mars among other places for commercial purposes. This could over time create colonies but if low gravity is a problem it could limit the duration for individual employees... so perhaps not colonized in the traditional sense but there could be need for various ancillary commerce.

It could also work out that space stations, which could provide artificial gravity similar to Earth could become a thing. AI + robotics and no job is too big if the resources are available.

It's difficult to say how it will work out, but I suspect business will try to minimize the crew numbers necessary for resource extraction so if colonies do form it will be over the long term and not something we will see in our lifetimes.

As far as the justification beyond commerce for colonies, if all the practical considerations can be addressed... why not?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Space migration [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25784553 -

Considering the cost, the time, and the mistakes and set backs, of such an endeavor, (meaning colonization, not 1 or 2 exploratory missions ) even if it turns out to be possible, I very much doubt it will happen in our life times.
And I doubt any of us will have any effect on if such an effort becomes serious.

As of now the USA is politically somewhat unstable, and the economy seems  in trouble at rather deep levels, that could easily become more prominent. So on these grounds alone it may never happen.

But assuming they do decide on some initial missions, the above considerations probably won't stop volunteers for missions, although even if all seems to go well, problems back on earth could easily lead to their being abandoned in some tiny lonely outpost for the duration of their life or lives.

Edited by laughingdog (02/01/19 09:29 PM)

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Re: Space migration [Re: laughingdog]
    #25785671 -

Like all nations the US will likely come and go but perhaps civilization will live on?

I also doubt it will happen in our lifetimes, but would not be surprised to see the beginnings of it for commercial purposes. The possibility of profit is a great motivator and in view of the limited resources Earth has to offer it may become necessary on another level.

Beyond that, any resources we can gather off world are resources we do not have to mine the Earth for. It would be good if we are able to facilitate a mode of being that allows for a high standard of living without ruining the Earth in the process. I think the regulars here know I'm an AGW skeptic (though not close minded), but I've also spoken about how population, land management and resource acquisition is a very serious issue and there is no doubt in my mind that it is largely responsible for the ongoing extinction event we are witnessing.

The wilderness is a magical thing. It will take the exploration of space to preserve and rehabilitate nature. It will also take an abundance of resources to bring all of humanity up to the standards of the modern world, which I believe is the only way to halt and reverse global population without tragic means. Whether such a thing is possible depends on more than the necessary resources and entails the capacity of our psyches to move into new modes of being provided the resources are there. There is reason to be un-hopeful, but there is no good reason to be un-hopeful.

In that respect I think the commercialization of space is one of the major components of having such hope and should be supported despite the current paradigm of mega corporations greedy for profit.

I think democratic socialism, or even democratic communism could represent the highest form of government possible for humans, perhaps even with anarchic connotations but conditions must be right. It is not something that humanity can be pushed into realizing under current circumstances. We are still creatures of the mud and I think we must address that to some degree on a physical level to address the issues which stem from it. It is a more complex topic than materialism = bad, spiritualism = good.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Space migration [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25789377 -

"but perhaps civilization will live on?"

as Ajhan Chah was fond of saying:

"its all uncertain"

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ajhan+chah+quotes&t=hm&ia=web

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Re: Space migration [Re: laughingdog]
    #25789888 -

That is true and why I posed it as a question. Nothing is certain. That is what hope is for. Such things can seem far from our daily lives and perhaps not significant, but as long as we are having the conversation it seems worth mentioning.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Space migration [Re: Rahz]
    #25793355 -

Whatever happened to curiosity for curiosities sake?
Or as a professor of mine once said, knowledge for knowledge's sake.

So many scientific discoveries have started out with no purpose other than to answer a question. And what those answers can and do morph into is a big unknown. A lot of science is about seeking knowledge first, publishing that knowledge, and then allowing practical applications to form as they may. Sometimes there's a clear vision for that application but definitely not always and I'd say not even a majority.

It seems to me that a high level of openness is an important element in most of our significant discoveries. Probably plays into some very insignificant discoveries too, we just don't hear about those :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Space migration [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #25794422 -

as a vital activity it would probably fall in the category of play, serious expensive play, and unless we have excess resources to make it a play/entertainment expense, we cannot afford to play in the  sandbox of space migration


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Space migration [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25796080 -

redgreenvines said:
as a vital activity it would probably fall in the category of play, serious expensive play, and unless we have excess resources to make it a play/entertainment expense, we cannot afford to play in the  sandbox of space migration


This is why it won't be a societal event but an ego event. If Elon, or Jeff, or Richard want to drop some serious coin on colonizing Uranus then that's gonna be their hobby. Elon's the only one with a game plan (and a profitable company shooting shit into orbit) but anybody with a rocket ship and a few tanks of O2 can be in the game.

As to the why of it it must be remembered that our species has always had the old wanderlust. We left Africa at least twice just to find out what was out there. As our technology advanced so did we until before we even knew how to grow stuff we had spread over the entire globe ('cept Antarctica). We'll go (and die in the attempt, over and over) 'cause that's just what we do. Pre-dominant culture, pre-agricultire, pre-government. They should really call us Homo Viator because even when it's not wise, we go.


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How can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all?

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Re: Space migration [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25797607 -

Space migration ? An ultimate indiscutable necessity. When will the sun explode finally ?
Since then we have the time to 1. keep us alive and 2. find a place to stay from then on... 3. Make it possible to go there and 4. stay there ... and 7. Most forgotten: find ways to keep life instead of degenerating it

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Re: Space migration [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25808218 -

whether it be through AI or DNA until we are immortal or at least living 1000s of years space is a pipe dream. We could all be immortal via robots or via artificial gene replacement very fast with in the next 100 years if we could put money and wealth aside. and until that happens we cant live long enough to even Think of what is required for true space travel and exploration.

Edited by HappyHigh (02/12/19 05:18 PM)

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Re: Space migration [Re: HappyHigh]
    #25808330 -

HappyHigh said:
whether it be through AI or DNA until we are immortal or at least living 1000s of years space is a pipe dream. We could all be immortal via robots or via artificial gene replacement very fast with in the next 100 years if we could put money and wealth aside. and until that happens we cant live long enough to even Think of what is required for true space travel and exploration.



I agree, and wouldn't it make a lot more sense to send robotic AI probes out into the cosmos? They wouldn't experience any of the major problems and rigors that are part and parcel of keeping human bodies alive. The idea of humans traveling light-years in a spacecraft seems pretty ridiculous when you stop and think about it. For example, what about all that cosmic radiation?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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