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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573228 -

So a fat wonderbread eating woman lives down the street from mush and he knows an "old bill"?

You're absolutely sure about that?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573244 -

Disingenuous, dishonest, despicable.

In a world where change happens at an astonishing rate, you are a constant. A constant most of us would be ashamed of. I guess being disingenuous, dishonest, and despicable works for you though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573279 -

Here's my question again:

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?

Would you care to adddress it rather than post the same 12 month old flames you always do?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573293 -

You are, or at the very least should be, well aware there are people like this all around us.


Quote:
Would you care to adddress it rather than post the same 12 month old flames you always do?


They aren't 12 months old, nor is the truth ever a flame.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573482 -

The question was:

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573504 -

And oh dishonest one, as I said... Yes. They are, quite sadly, everywhere.

So now a question from me.....
Does the lying and dishonesty come naturally or is it something you developed over the years?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573528 -

:yawn:

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573546 -

Alex123 said:
yep. when that fat, cola swilling, fast-food and wonderbread eating woman down the street needs meds for the high cholestorol and diabetes her choices brought on her...when old bill's black lungs finally sprout a tumor from a lifetime of cigarettes,

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?


I take it you've never been to America.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2573547 -

z@z.com said:
Alex123 said:
yep. when that fat, cola swilling, fast-food and wonderbread eating woman down the street needs meds for the high cholestorol and diabetes her choices brought on her...when old bill's black lungs finally sprout a tumor from a lifetime of cigarettes,

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?


I take it you've never been to America.


Sadly they aren't just in America.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2573841 -

Quote:
carbonhoots said:
What are you trying to prove with your figures?


Re-read my post, read the link. They're in English.

Quote:
People have been coming up with these facts and figures to prove socialized health insurance will bankrupt the country for 40 years now.


Please explain to me how the U.S. will remain solvent if it continues it's present course. Where will the money come from? If the tax rates are jacked up, how will this affect people's disposable income? How will this affect jobs? If the government decides to massively increase the money supply to cover these obligations, how will this affect the value of people's money (their purchasing power)? Won't we experience massive inflation? How will this affect the economy? The U.S. systems of Medicare and Social Security are actuarially unsound. Do you deny this or do you contend that they are in a sustainable condition based on current practices? Please provide the figures to support such a claim if in fact you agree with it.

Quote:
Those kinds of people are the same sort who say that CO2 emissions don't cause global warming. They are paid well to play Devil's advocate.


BULLSHIT. Please see my response above and offer counter arguments based on the facts of current revenue streams, current expenditures, current debt loads, service on current and projected future debt, projected future revenue streams and projected future expenditures.

Quote:
Before Canada actually implemented the law, those people said newborn babies would be owned by the government if there was public health insurance. Fortunately, back in reality, some people knew what was going on.


This is irrelevant to the facts pertaining to the solvency of the system.

Quote:
Why do some people think they need a middleman, who makes boatlaods of money, to provide them with health insurance? Why not cut out the middleman and spend those dollars on patients and technology?


Government's not a middle man between you and your health care provider? Do you think that government doesn't waste money? How do you think that the multiple levels of state bureaucrats get paid?

Quote:
Do you and your family have fully comprehensive coverage for your 208 per month?


Yes.

Quote:
Do you have any restrictions?


Well I don't have the policy in front of me, but I'm sure pre-existing conditions are not covered. It does not cover eyeglasses, dentistry or non-necessary (cosmetic) procedures.

Quote:
Can you see a doctor out of state no problem?


Yes, there are no restrictions on which doctors we can see, we can even see a doctor in another country if medically necessary, and it will be paid for.

Quote:
How about a deductible?


20% maximum, $3,000 maximum per year. It's not that much, nothing to whine about. Plus we put money into an interest bearing HSA (health savings account) for this purpose. The money is pre-tax (lowering our adjusted gross income) and checks are written from this account. This account is similar to an IRA in that along with pre-tax deposits and having non-taxable interest, after I reach 65 I can use the money for my retirement (at which time, BTW, social security WILL be bankrupt).

Quote:
I like my health insurance written into law rather than the fine print of some insurance policy.


Law that can be changed or reinterpreted by a bureaucrat or judge on a whim? Law that can say your treatment is contingent upon parameters set up by those 'fighting' the drug war or any other politically motivated bullshit? Law set up by people with a time horizon limited to the next election cycle? Law that sets up systems that are financially unsound?

Quote:
It's called being a member of a civilized society.


Really? Is it by implication then uncivilized for one to be responsible for himself and his family, for one to take action to insure their medical needs are taken care of?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573879 -

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?

there are plenty of people who smoke and get lung cancer or eat terribly unhealthy food and don't excericise who get high cholesterol, heart disease, or diabetes. some of these people are, or will be, on tax-funded medicare for the ailments they've caused for themselves.

i have no problem with people living the way they want to and making their own free choices. what i do have a problem with is when someone else is expected to pay the consequences.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573885 -

Quote:
Disingenuous, dishonest, despicable.

In a world where change happens at an astonishing rate, you are a constant. A constant most of us would be ashamed of. I guess being disingenuous, dishonest, and despicable works for you though.




^^Petty little hate machine arent u?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2573950 -

Nope.

Just being accurate, and honest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Evolving]
    #2575425 -

Well, your health plan sounds pretty good. I wouldn't complain if I were you.

But I've heard of people who are not so healthy, getting denied access to health insurance beacause they are too great a risk. You know this happens right? That would be pretty shitty for them. And I don't believe in leaving the sick and weak to die without proper help if it can be helped. And it can. There are ample resources availible. I'm just making the point that public insurance is more humane and compasionate than private.

As for your max 3000$ deductable, that just means your access is all well and good, untill you may really need it. For working people, coming up with 3000$ dollars a year when you are too sick to work could lead to financial ruin. (sell the house)

As for government wasting money, in the area of public insurance, it's been proven time and time again to be far more efficient than private insurance.

When you talk about these systems, like social security and medicare, going broke, keep in mind the GDP of your nation. There is more than enough money in America to keep everyone on stable ground. No one in Canada sells their house to pay for medical bils.

Yes it's true these systems will run out of money if things don't change, but the USA is ample rich enough to provide social programs to it's population. It's a matter of priorities and political will. The public sector is starved while billionaires walk amonst us. There is more than enough to go around. And many countries that are not nearly as rich as USA provide a safe, secure living to all their citizens, through democratic government redistribution and spending.

An all inclusive, just, more egalitarian society is not only possible, it's crying to happen. It will happen in the not so distant future, and the people of the future will look back on this age of inequality with disgust.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2575768 -

carbonhoots said:
Yes it's true these systems will run out of money if things don't change, but the USA is ample rich enough to provide social programs to it's population. It's a matter of priorities and political will. The public sector is starved while billionaires walk amonst us. There is more than enough to go around. And many countries that are not nearly as rich as USA provide a safe, secure living to all their citizens, through democratic government redistribution and spending.


Wait i never thought about it like that, maybe America should become socialist like you are describing.

Oh no, wait, thats a horrible idea haha haha haha ha.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2576581 -

there are plenty of people

So I take it neither of the two people you mentioned exist anywhere but in your imagination and are as valid as someone saying "Old Isaac with the hook nose down the street who takes all your money and has bags of gold.."

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2576585 -

^^Petty little hate machine arent u?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2576789 -

Old Isaac with the hook nose down the street who takes all your money and has bags of gold.."

old isaac doesn't represent real people.

there are real people who do exist who are 100% responsible for their own medical ailments for which others are expected to provide care via medicare.

do you mean to suggest that no one on medicare has gotten ill or injured from things like cigarette smoking, alcoholism, poor diet, lack of excercise, reckless driving, unprotected sex, etc. etc. etc. and had the taxpayer foot the bill?

no one like that really exists? they're just figments of my imagination?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2576973 -

old isaac doesn't represent real people.

There arn't any rich jews who have taken people's money?

no one like that really exists? they're just figments of my imagination?

Yeah but it's like any lazy stereotyping isn't it. Some neo-nazi could say "These niggers who wear gold chains and rob old ladies are figments of my imagination are they?".

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577077 -

There arn't any rich jews who have taken people's money?

i imagine there might be a few. what does that have to do with anything?

Yeah but it's like any lazy stereotyping isn't it. Some neo-nazi could say "These niggers who wear gold chains and rob old ladies are figments of my imagination are they?".

i'm not stereotyping anyone. i'm not trying to claim that all, or even most, of the people on medicare are receiving treatment for ailments to which they owe their own behavior. what i am saying is that personal behaviors do affect one's health, and consequently, one's need for medical services, that there are some people recieving tax-funded medical care as a result of their own unhealthy decisions, and that there would be even more if health care was nationalized.

note that when individual health becomes a communal interest, it sets a pretext for government intervention in what may be deemed 'unhealthy' behavior. we can say that smoking cigarettes (or pot, or drinking booze, or having unprotected sex with a total stranger, or eating steak) in the privacy of your own home is a totally victimless act that harms no one but the smoker in any way. when others are forced to pay for their medical care, this is not the case. now the community at large bears the responsibility for the consequences of one's behavior, and it is far easier to justify restrictions on one's behavior.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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