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OfflineKommunist
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Join the American Communist Party
    #2541338 - 04/08/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Lots of good people who want to change the country. CPUSA


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541355 - 04/08/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541394 - 04/08/04 11:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Either you're a puppet or you're a rebellious youth who hasn't given this much thought. Tell me: do you value freedom?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineKommunist
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541424 - 04/09/04 12:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes just read it...communism isnt against freedom, its for freedom, and peace.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541438 - 04/09/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Communism as a VOLUNTARY way of life is fine, communism as implemented by a state is anti-freedom.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541447 - 04/09/04 12:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Communism only works on paper.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineKommunist
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Evolving]
    #2541448 - 04/09/04 12:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Since you probally wont read the site...here is an overview of our views..

Communist Party Immediate Program for the Crisis

It is shameful and unacceptable that any child should live in poverty, and that anyone should go hungry, homeless, without medicine, or without a living wage in our nation of such great wealth.

Meet the Needs of Working, Unemployed and Farm Families
- Raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.
-Unemployment insurance for all workers.
- Moratorium on farm foreclosures
- Labor law reform to remove barriers to workers who want to join a union.
- No privatization of Social Security. Increase benefits.
- Universal prescription drug coverage administered by Medicare. Universal health care system.
- Restore social safety net. Welfare reform that includes job training, supports and living wages.
- Full funding for equal, quality, bi-lingual public education. No vouchers.

Make Corporate Giants Pay
- Repeal tax cuts to the rich and corporations.
- Close corporate tax loopholes.
- Restitution to workers' pensions.
- Strong regulation of financial industry.
- Regulation and public ownership of utilities
- Prosecute corporate polluters. Public works program to clean our air, water and land
- Aid to cities and states. Federally funded infrastructure repair and social service programs

Foreign Policy for Peace and Justice
- No to war with Iraq - End military interventions
- Repeal Fast Track and NAFTA, stop Free Trade Area of the Americas(FTAA). No secrecy.
- Save Salt II Agreements, reject Star Wars and Nuclear Posture Review
-Abolish nuclear weapons
- End military interventions.
- Cut military budget and fund human needs.

Defend Democracy and Civil Rights
- End racial profiling.
- Repeal the death penalty.
- Enforce civil rights laws and affirmative action.
- Repeal USA Patriot Act.
- Legalization and protection of immigrant>rights.
- Public financing of elections. Overall election law reform including Instant Runoff Voting.
- Youth and student bill of rights. Guarantee youth's right to earn,learn and live.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541515 - 04/09/04 12:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

- Raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.



Thus increasing inflation, making the new wages no better than the old ones.

Quote:

-Unemployment insurance for all workers.



I'm fine with business voluntarily providing this, or even giving them incentives to do this, but it should not be forced.

Quote:

- No privatization of Social Security. Increase benefits.



With money stolen from us, the taxpayers.

Quote:

- Universal prescription drug coverage administered by Medicare. Universal health care system.



Again, with money stolen from us.

Quote:

- Restore social safety net. Welfare reform that includes job training, supports and living wages.



I'm uncomfortable with welfare as well, since it comes from our paycheck, but I agree that as long as we have it, it should include job training. It alrady provides a living wage, and thus that point is moot.

Quote:

- Strong regulation of financial industry.



Vague. What kind of regulation?

Quote:

- Regulation and public ownership of utilities



Which utilities, and what kind of regulation?

Quote:

- Aid to cities and states. Federally funded infrastructure repair and social service programs



Again, with stolen money.

Quote:

- Cut military budget and fund human needs.



What is meant by "human needs"?

Quote:

- Enforce civil rights laws and affirmative action.



Thus using racism to fight racism. Lame.

Quote:

- Legalization and protection of immigrant>rights.



Immigration is legal, and those who legally immigrate do have rights.

Quote:

- Public financing of elections. Overall election law reform including Instant Runoff Voting.



Now you're gonna use money stolen from me to finance candidates I disagree with? Fuck that!


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2541600 - 04/09/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kommunist said:
- Raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.



Care to address this topic in this thread?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: silversoul7]
    #2542090 - 04/09/04 03:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)



http://www.nathannewman.org/other/howwelfarehelpsus.html

HOW WELFARE HELPS "THE REST OF US"
-- Nathan Newman, newman@socrates.berkeley.edu

The current debate on welfare is stale, tired and, ultimately,
missing the economic point.

Let's be clear what welfare is and is not. Welfare is not charity.
Welfare is a system of payments made to the poor not to take any job if
its pay is so low that it underbids wages for those who have jobs. When
linked to other policies like the minimum wage, welfare is (and should be
seen as) an economic tool by society to keep wages high.

Progressives need to stop appealing just to the compassion of the
public in defending welfare and start playing on their self-interest. The
economic reality is that decent wages for "the rest of us" depend on
having a decent welfare system. Without that welfare system, all wages go
down under a flood of workers desperate to take jobs at any wage in order
to keep their families from starving.

Conservatives try to argue that even if kicking people off welfare
causes some erosion in wages, it's cheaper than increasing the taxes
needed to pay people on welfare. The obvious response is to point out how
small a portion of the federal budget is taken up by programs like AFDC
and other payments to the non-working poor. Out of a $1.6 trillion
federal budget, only $19 billion goes to AFDC, just over 1% of every
federal dollar spent.

But that's a defensive argument and progressives have to get off the
defense and on the offense. We have to sketch exactly how supporting the
welfare system, even expanding it, can be used to reverse the wage erosion
workers have faced in the last two decades.

Let's start with the minimum wage. Conservatives use the fear of
unemployment to oppose it. In the recent debate on the minimum wage,
opponents of raising the minimum wage from $4.25 to $5.15 per hour have
argued that employers would lay off hundreds of thousands of workers
(roughly 1-2% of minimum wage workers in their estimates) if forced to
raise wages for the rest. Now, a number of solid economic studies, most
recently by economists David Card and Alan Krueger, have shown that modest
raises in the minimum wage actually have no effect on employment.

But, for the sake of argument, let's ignore those economic studies
and target our economic program at those who might buy conservative
arguments that 1-2% of minimum wage jobs will be lost if the minimum wage
is raised. Even with that assumption, if we create a strong welfare
system, everyone, including the taxpayer, gains from the increase in the
minimum wage. Follow the math on this and you'll have the strongest
argument in countering conservatives attacks on both welfare and the
minimum wage.

Buying the conservatives' assumptions of 2% unemployment, it means
that for every 100 minimum wage workers initially making $4.25 per hour,
we will end up with 98 workers making the new minimum wage of $5.15 per
hour and 2 workers unemployed.

Breaking that down by hour, week and year, for every 100 workers
who initially make $4.25 per hour ($170 per 40-hr week, $8840 per year),
the total combined wages of all 98 workers who stay employed initially
equals: $866,320 per year ($8840 per year x 98 workers).

After the raise in the minimum wage to $5.15 per hour ($206 per
week, $10,712 per year), total wages will increase to $1,049,776 per year
($10,712 per year x 98 workers). Those 98 workers will see an individual
gain of $1872 per year in wages and an com bined gain of $165,776 in
wages.

If the two newly unemployed people are supported with welfare
payments equal to their previous yearly wage of $8840 (much more generous
than present welfare systems), the total cost will be $17,680--far less
than the $165,776 net gain in wages for the other 98 workers. In fact,
that $17,680 is far less than what the federal government would receive in
increased income and payroll taxes on those increased wages.

So even using the conservatives' own estimates of job loss, the
minimum wage with a strong welfare system can be used to increase wages
while protecting the incomes of those left unemployed.

To translate this into the slightly messier real numbers of the
overall US economy, there are 12.3 million workers who make less than the
proposed new minimum wage of $5.15 per hour. They make an average of
$4.67 per hour, so if 98% of those workers have their wages increased to
the new minimum wage, the aggregate increase in wages will be $12 billion
yearly. This is far more than any welfare costs that might be needed for
income and training funds if any workers are left unemployed.

These numbers have all assumed the rather miserly increase in the
minimum wage proposed by Clinton. If instead of $5.15 per hour, we
increased the minimum wage another dollar to $6.15 per hour (about the
inflation-adjusted level back in 1969), we can see even more dramatic
effects.

There are 20.8 million Americans making less than $6.15 per hour. If
all of these workers (with an average wage of $5.10 per hour) had their
wages increased to a $6.15 per hour minimum wage, the net increase in
wages would be $45.6 billion annually. Even if we assumed a worst-case
assumption of 10% of those workers were left unemployed, this would still
leave a potential $40 billion for welfare and retraining funds--an amount
DOUBLE the entire present AFDC budget.

In fact, all these numbers understate the overall gains in wages,
since it ignores the effect of the minimum wage on higher wage workers.
But the reality is that the mass of workers making a bit more than any new
minimum wage are able to demand a wage increase to maintain a "spread"
between them and less skilled workers now making what they used to make.

So where are these increased wages coming from? Some of it comes
from increased growth due to higher consumer demand, some from increased
costs passed onto consumers, but in the end, in highly competitive markets
employing minimum wage workers, the largest chunk come out of the profits
and executive compensation of corporate stockholders. And there's the
reason why both welfare payments and the minimum wage are opposed so
vociferously by corporations and their legislative allies.

It's no coincidence that conservatives support both eliminating
welfare payments and lowering the minimum wage. Moving people from
welfare into the workplace drives down wages, and the last thing
conservatives (supported massively by low-wage employers) want is to have
the government prevent wages from falling. And by keeping welfare payments
low or non-existent, they can create fear of unemployment from raising the
minimum wage or supporting other policies to raise wages.

Of course, there are ways to improve welfare, including providing
work instead of income payments, but that work has to be at a living wage
that, instead of driving down wages, helps to bolster wages in society
while delivering services that the market fails to provide.

Look at the debate over Wisconsin's proposed welfare plan, a plan to
end welfare for everyone in the state and replace it with work
requirements. Where is the headline-grabbing debate over the fact that
this flood of new additions to the workforce will be making less than
minimum wage and even replacing workers who previously made much higher
wages?

The enthusiasm for welfare "reform" would chill significantly if
people recognized that shredding the safety net also meant shredding their
own wages. If the Wisconsin-style plan was extended nationally, the
effects would trash wages across the coun try. Even as welfare payments
have declined in the last two decades, average hourly wages have dropped
by over 10% and wages for less-skilled job have fallen even more. Imagine
all four million plus adult recipients of AFDC being dumped in the labor
market tomorrow on top of present unemployment, or even gradually over a
year or two.

The key thing for progressives to argue is that unless the policy
is to spend MORE to provide real jobs for all, it's cheaper for working
families to pay people not to work than to force them to work at wages
that drive down pay for all of us.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Xlea321]
    #2542098 - 04/09/04 03:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You've posted that article plenty of times before. What it fails to address is the fact that welfare is funded by stolen money. Even my dad, who is a very intelligent man, cannot defend welfare without creating a straw-man argument about corporate welfare, which I also oppose.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: silversoul7]
    #2542105 - 04/09/04 03:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Then try reading it this time.

Without welfare wages for everyone else drop through the floor. You either pay a few bucks in tax every month or compete for your job with someone who will work for a bowl of soup a day.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Xlea321]
    #2542121 - 04/09/04 03:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You say wages for everyone would go down, but would that be adjusted for the decrease in inflation? Also, there are already people who will work for much less than minimum wage. They're called illegal immigrants.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: silversoul7]
    #2542129 - 04/09/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't "say" it. I look at the figures explained above. Do the math.

Do you think inflation could "adjust" to make being paid a bowl of soup a day a more attractive proposition than paying tax is now?

So you want to make everyone compete for jobs with the working conditions illegal immigrants will accept? Sounds like a great world  :rolleyes:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Xlea321]
    #2542133 - 04/09/04 03:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How can you be so sure it would drop to "a bowl of soup a day"? Let's ask pinksharkmark what kind of wages are standard where he lives.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: silversoul7]
    #2542144 - 04/09/04 03:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The point is wages will drop through the floor if you have a workplace where you either work or starve to death. You can see that can't you?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: silversoul7]
    #2542152 - 04/09/04 03:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There is no government welfare program where I live. Workers here support pretty large families on the wages they receive. This is still a third world, Catholic country where people who have less than four kids are pitied.

The typical Dominican worker may not be driving a Mercedes, or any car at all for that matter, but they and their families are nowhere close to starving.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Xlea321]
    #2542170 - 04/09/04 04:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, if only everywhere was like this  :rolleyes:

Over 8 million people live in the dominican republic. Over half the children die before they are five.

The boom in tourism along with other factors has led to the expansion of the leisure industry. Along with this there has been an increase in prostitution and trafficking in humans. Prostitution is further encouraged by impoverishment. In particular, street children in the towns and cities are threatened by abduction and then commercial sexual exploitation. In their desperation some fall for promises of well-paid jobs. The difficult situation faced by people is also exploited by unscrupulous people from other countries. No less than 50 000 women and children from the Dominican Republic are working in foreign countries in the "sex industry", the fourth highest number after Thailand, Brazil and the Philippines.


Life for the poor is a real and constant struggle to provide the basic necessities of food, shelter, and clothing. Poverty is visible in the bloated bellies of many of the children, and the inadequate housing, and the constant search for employment by young men. It is in the cities where the poverty seems most stark, particularly when contrasted against the most visible signs of modernity, for instance new skyscrapers, and building projects that display the wealth. Such contrasts serve as a reminder of how much need to be done in the Dominican Republic, and how unevenly modernity has come (Howard, 1969. Wiarda, 1982).

The recent thrust toward development and economic growth have largely passed by the urban poor, turning them into a vast army of disadvantaged people, who may pose a major threat to the elite-dominated social and political structure. The middle and upper classes reveal a much different situation. They have done quite well even in the midst of an economic downturn. The upper class worries about different things than those who are in the lower class. The upper class concern themselves with world market prices for sugar which is critical to the country?s wealth and their own. Trading and investments, and tourism, and family ties are also critical to this group?s survival. The lower classes worry about surviving (Howard, 1969, Wiarda, 1982).

As a result unemployment, poverty is at its highest level. For example on May 5, 2000, Eyewitness News gave a report about a Dominican woman trying to escape from poverty in the Dominican Republic. She was found floating on a piece of wood off the shore of Puerto Rico. When the woman returned to the Dominican Republic, she agreed to be interviewed by Eyewitness News. She stated that this was her second attempt to try and make it to Puerto Rico and then to New York. She stated that in the Dominican Republic poverty is still very real and that was why she was trying to escape to a better life.

She tried to make a living in the Dominican Republic, but no matter how hard she tried, life seemed to get more difficult, and it became a no win situation. She decided to go with a group of people in a boat and sail to Puerto Rico. She is now recovering from her ordeal, and has decided not to try and escape again because of her narrow escape from death. She will try again to make a living in the Dominican Republic, and she knows that it will not be easy, especially in a country that turns a blind eye to poverty and the life and death struggle of the poor.

The companies situated in the urban areas are low-cost assembly plants, which are called Industrial Free Zones (IFZ). These companies manufacture, textiles, footwear, sporting goods, electronics, and pharmaceuticals. Approximately 90 percent of the capital investment in the IFZ are foreign, mainly from the U.S. Each morning hundreds and often thousands of local workers, mostly women, stream into the plants to start a 10-hour day of a repetitive and poorly paid laborjob. Their earnings consist of 700 or 800 pesos per month, which is equivalent to a monthly salary ranging between $62.50 and $71.50 U.S. dollars. A daily wage in the Dominican Republic is therefore less than a very poor hourly rate in the U.S. (Black, 1986).

The IFZ workers work from 7:30 AM. to 5:00 or 6:00 P.M. with a 10-minute morning break and a half-hour lunch break. The work is intense and tedious, and the workers must meet the hourly production targets under heat and noise conditions. The majority of the workers are women ranging from 18-25 years of age, and some are newly arrived from the countryside. The workers themselves must meet transportation cost from the town to the IFZ. There are no prospects for promotion; instead women are usually released after three or four years in order to make way for younger workers (Black, 1986).

There are no trade unions in the IFZ, because they are banned.

http://www.saxakali.com/caribbean/elangston.htm

http://www.child-hood.com/en/text_p440.html


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Xlea321]
    #2542948 - 04/09/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
The point is wages will drop through the floor if you have a workplace where you either work or starve to death. You can see that can't you?



I am not advocating anyone starving to death. I have nothing against charity, and in fact encourage it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Join the American Communist Party [Re: Kommunist]
    #2543153 - 04/09/04 01:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

- Raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.

do that, and everyone who's labor is worth less than that will be laid off, and what's more, the wealth that would have been produced by their labor will never come into being. the community will be that much poorer. the only thing you will do is limit employment and production.

why should a man who is willing to work for $10 an hour be barred from working at that wage? if i am willing to pay a man $10 an hour for his labor, and he is willing to work for that much, who has the right to terminate this agreement by force, and on what grounds?

-Unemployment insurance for all workers.

you're going to need a whole lot of money for that, especially if you bump the minimum wage to $12 an hour. will you borrow or print the money, causing inflation, or will you seize it from the taxpayers, inhibiting investment and growth?

- Moratorium on farm foreclosures

why? if you borrow your farm based on an agreement with a lender, and you do not meet that agreement, why shouldn't they be allowed to have their farm back? was that not the agreement?

if i was a lender, i'd certainly think twice about lending to farmers if this went into effect; i wouldn't do it at all... it would basically be tantamount to giving a farm away. if i was a dishonest person who could find a foolish lender, perhaps i'd lease a farm and blow off my payments...

- Labor law reform to remove barriers to workers who want to join a union.

sounds fine, but what barriers?

- No privatization of Social Security. Increase benefits.

will you seize money from taxpayers, inhibiting investment and growth, will you borrow the money, driving up inflation and the debt, or will you just roll it off the press, increasing inflation?

- Universal prescription drug coverage administered by Medicare. Universal health care system.

see above.

- Restore social safety net. Welfare reform that includes job training, supports and living wages.

see above. you are creating the very economic maladies you're trying to cure.

- Full funding for equal, quality, bi-lingual public education. No vouchers.

funding from whom? the federal government? ignoring for a moment that this is unconstitutional, how will you ensure that everyone gets equal education? an affluent community may pay more for local schools than an inner-city one. a whole state might decide to pay more for education than another. how will you guarantee that every school is equal? will this require prohibiting spending on education by certain townships?

communism\socialism sounds good until you consider the ethical implications of implementing it and the economic consequences of its policies. it does not work in practice because it does not consider the economic fallout. some say it works well only on paper. even on paper however, it is flawed; one only needs to read between the lines. it impoverishes and enslaves the people.


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