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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2577203 -

carbonhoots said:
When you talk about these systems, like social security and medicare, going broke, keep in mind the GDP of your nation. There is more than enough money in America to keep everyone on stable ground. No one in Canada sells their house to pay for medical bils.

Yes it's true these systems will run out of money if things don't change, but the USA is ample rich enough to provide social programs to it's population. It's a matter of priorities and political will.


I am keeping in mind the GDP of the U.S. I'm talking economic and demographic realities which will come into conflict with socialist fantasies. The taxpayers are not a bottomless well that can be dipped into forever without destroying the well.

Do you understand the following concepts: current revenue streams, current expenditures, current debt loads, service on current and projected future debt, projected future revenue streams, projected future expenditures, demographics, ageing population, acturial calculations? Do you realize that the percentage of retirees is increasing? How will this affect revenue streams? How will this affect medical and social security expenses? If the tax rates are jacked up, how will this affect people's disposable income? How will this affect jobs? If the government decides to massively increase the money supply to cover these obligations, how will this affect the value of people's money (their purchasing power)? Won't we experience massive inflation? How will this affect the economy?

Failure to consider the afore mentioned concepts and questions will keep us on our present path and will bankrupt our country. Flippantly dismissing them under the notion that the USA is ample rich enough' displays ignorance and a commitment to remain so. Are you sure you're not an American voter?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2577214 -

i imagine there might be a few. what does that have to do with anything?

About as much as your sterotyping has to do with people who need healthcare.

i'm not stereotyping anyone.

So you're just as likely to say "Old Bill down the street who has worked harder than I could ever dream of for 30 years who got injured in a car crash and needed healthcare for a month while he healed and then went back to work in constant pain"?

Why were both your stereotypes negative?

now the community at large bears the responsibility for the consequences of one's behavior..

The system in the UK works by "national insurance". You pay a little out of your pay packet every month and if you ever need help it's there.

that there are some people recieving tax-funded medical care as a result of their own unhealthy decisions

So what? How many people are recieving tax-funded medical care as a result of going out jogging? Playing sports? More people need hospital treatment in the UK as a result of exercising than do from using Ecstasy. Where do you draw your arbitary lines about what injuries and illness are a result of "their own unhealthy decisions"?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2577251 -

but the USA is ample rich enough to provide social programs to it's population.

The "we can't afford it" angle always amuses me considering Britain introduced much of the welfare state in 1945 after just spending 6 years fighting a world war.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577417 -

alex. read carefully:

your health is affected by your behavior. when your health becomes a communal responsibility, your private behavior becomes a communal interest. things like neglecting to wear a helmet or seatbelt, using drugs or eating unhealthy food, which would otherwise be a personal decision, are now everyone else's business.

About as much as your sterotyping has to do with people who need healthcare.

you are misinterpreting me. i am not saying that nationalized healthcare is a bad idea because everyone, or most, of the people who use it are freeloading off other people to pay for their reckless or unhealthy behavior. i was making an observation, not an argument. i am fully aware that there are millions of people with diseases or injuries which are no fault of their own. i'll say this again: i am not trying to stereotype anyone. you are completely missing my point.

nationalized healthcare is a bad idea because it is wrong to force people to pay for a service they don't want to pay for, and because it sets a pretext for greater government intervention in the private behavior of citizens.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2577457 -

things like neglecting to wear a helmet or seatbelt, using drugs or eating unhealthy food, which would otherwise be a personal decision, are now everyone else's business.

Did you read my post? How many people do you think need treatment after injuring themselves exercising or playing sports? What "human behaviour" doesn't entail the risk of injury or illness? Are you trying to say we have to apportion blame for each activity?

Keith Richards spent a decade injecting heroin every day and chain smoking, should he have to pay for Jim Fixx's heart problems? Or a guy who breaks his neck playing american football? Everyone on earth does an activity that may damage their health. Why try and seperate off or "blame" the ones who "eat unhealthy food"?

i am not trying to stereotype anyone. you are completely missing my point.

Surely you realise the wonderbread eating fat woman "down the street" and old bill were stereotypes?

nationalized healthcare is a bad idea because it is wrong to force people to pay for a service they don't want to pay for

Not sure about that. Even the right-wingers in the UK would think twice before trying to privatise the health service. The vast bulk of people in England are incredibly proud and passionate about public healthcare. If any politician says they want to spend more on the national health service they sure as hell arn't going to lose any votes.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577497 -

Did you read my post? How many people do you think need treatment after injuring themselves exercising or playing sports? What "human behaviour" doesn't entail the risk of injury or illness?

i understand your point. all human endeavors involve some risk. because the risks are beared by individuals, individuals are free to decide what risks they will expose themselves to. when the community bears some of the risk, the community will have grounds to impose its own standards as to what risks are acceptable. you are making what would otherwise be private behavior a public concern.

Well, surely you realise the wonderbread eating fat woman "down the street" and old bill were stereotypes?

of whom?

Not sure about that.

not sure about what?

not sure that people are being forced to receive and pay for a service they do not want to receive and pay for? you don't there's anyone in the UK who doesn't like paying for national healthcare and would rather use a private provider?

not sure about it being unethical? you don't think it's unethical to force someone to receive and pay for something they don't want to receive and pay for?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2577509 -

the community will have grounds to impose its own standards as to what risks are acceptable.

Doesn't sound very libertarian. So we have to listen to some pain in the ass who arbitrarily makes rules that say "You can't have any healthcare if you do this, this or that?". Are they going to send the cops to check up on whether or not you're masturbating too much?

not sure about what? the fact that people are being forced to pay for a service they do not want?

Who are these people? If a political group in the UK said they wanted to end national health care they would be lucky to get a handful of votes.

you don't there's anyone in the UK who doesn't like paying for national healthcare and would rather use a private provider?

I'm sure there are some people who don't want jews to be kept out of the gas chambers either - at some point we have to make a decision based on what's best for most people.

of course the poor family that pays $25 a year more in taxes for national healthcare probably doesn't mind paying that much for it. the business owner who contributes $8,000 a year for it probably does.

And what if the poor family eat healthily and train while the buisness owner eats fatty foods and fucks whores in hotel rooms on business trips and needs thousands more in healthcare? What if his business collapses tomorrow and he ends up poor? What if he's got such lousy working conditions that hundreds of his staff need healthcare?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577528 -

Doesn't sound very libertarian.

that's the point alex. because the community now has to pay for what would otherwise be private decisions, there is now grounds for those decisions to become public ones.

Who are these people?

probably many of those who are paying more for the healthcare they recieve than its market value. you understand that because some people are recieiving healthcare for less than its market value, some must pay more? some benefit at the expense of others. the fact that the beneficiaries outnumber the victims may make the program politically popular, but it does not make it ethical.

And what if the poor family eat healthily and train while the buisness owner eats fatty foods and fucks whores in hotel rooms on business trips and needs thousands more in healthcare? What if his business collapses tomorrow and he ends up poor?

has my point completely gone over your head? read my reply above.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577572 -

So you're just as likely to say "Old Bill down the street who has worked harder than I could ever dream of for 30 years who got injured in a car crash and needed healthcare for a month while he healed and then went back to work in constant pain"?

It's pretty clear on this end that he meant that their would certainly be all levels of participants in this program. Old Bill (do you know an old bill, btw, or is he a figment of YOUR imagination) down the street might bust his ass for 30 years, then get hit by a car, and be covered. However, the exact opposite end of the spectrum could occur, the people that consciously make bad health decisions. Why should Old Bill who has busted his ass and (since I'm sure you are making him up, i'll add to him some) kept him self healthy, exercized regularly etc, and has NEVER had to use any of the medical benefits that he's been paying for, have to pay into a system on the same basis that the people that spend their entire lives watching Springer and eating food that ends with "o's" (doritos, chees-os' etc). Don't you think that Old Bill is getting the shaft here?

Why were both your stereotypes negative?

to demonstrate how people that aren't caring about their health are going to, most likely, be using more of the health care program than people that are. At my work, I pay (I think) 34$/month for full coverage for me, a 23 year old male with no children (that I'm aware of) and no spouse. This is the standard non-smoker rate, I believe that smokers pay a 6$/month surcharge for their habit. One time a year we have a "health fest" with an incentive program. If you have a body fat of less than X percentage, you get 4$ knocked off your monthly charges. If you are able to walk 2 miles in less than X time, you get another 4$ knocked off. If your cholestorol and glucose levels are within acceptable ranges, you get another 4$ knocked off. People that intentionally put themselves into a higher risk category should pay more for a program that, STATISTICALLY, they are more likely to use.
The system in the UK works by "national insurance". You pay a little out of your pay packet every month and if you ever need help it's there.
Is their any built-in incentive for those that try hard to keep themselves healthy?

So what? How many people are recieving tax-funded medical care as a result of going out jogging? Playing sports? More people need hospital treatment in the UK as a result of exercising than do from using Ecstasy. Where do you draw your arbitary lines about what injuries and illness are a result of "their own unhealthy decisions"?
I don't know how the UK works, but since you talked about that nation earlier, I'll assume you are from the UK. Lets say that I bought a brand new Toyota hybrid car with dual airbags, antilock brakes, side curtain airbags, and I've never had a speeding ticket in my life. Should I pay the same amount of insurance as a person who just bought a Lamborghini Diablo, and has totalled their last 10 Lamborghini's?

To answer your question, the AHA and other health organizations know what the main risk factors are, but I don't want to get into a discussion of all of them. Lets start small here, do you think that a smoker should pay the same amount of insurance as a non-smoker? These are the only two aspects that you can see about a person, no other factors are to be taken into consideration. Person 1 uses a product that kills 1/3 of the people that use it, and person 2 doesn't.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2577730 -

Just come across this mush, wonder how this guy should be judged by the community? You think he's cost the health service more than "old bill"?

Jim Cantalupo, chief executive and chairman of fast-food chain McDonald's, has died of an apparent heart attack.
The company said the 60-year-old had been attending a meeting of restaurant franchise owners in Orlando, Florida, when he fell ill.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3639607.stm

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577920 -

Just come across this mush, wonder how this guy should be judged by the community? You think he's cost the health service more than "old bill"?

You are missing the point completely. The McD's exec made available a product that, when used in excess, can lead to conditions that raise the risk of select disease. In this instance, for the entire sub-thread that you, mush and I have going, we are discussing the inequality of how people treat THEMSELVES, and how they pay into the hypothetical socialized health care system. If he simply makes a product available, he isn't held, in this instance, to call upon for people that decide to abuse the product he makes available.

I can't speak for mushguy, but I can say that I think that people who undergo certain risks should pay higher premiums for any sort of insurance. That is why people with DUI's pay staggering insurance rates. If I choose to work for a company that manufactures food that isn't meant to be eaten at every meal, thats my decision. However, if someone chooses to EAT that food in excess, and not exercise to play down any harmful ramifications of this life choice, that is their choice. I'm not saying that we should limit their choice, or take it away, I'm simply saying that the cupability, and the higher insurance rates, lie solely in the lap of those that make the INFORMED decision to take higher risk lifestyles.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2581475 -

It's usually recognised that the supplier should be treated more harshly than the small-time guy buying tho. If these companies are making massive profits destroying health and increasing health care costs surely they should pay more towards health care than "old bill".

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2583660 -

Let me ensure that my understanding of your "point" is complete...

First, mushmaster used fictitious characters to describe a particular situation. You jumped on him saying that these people don't exist. Then you did the same thing and, apparently, it was then OK and not "sterotyping"

Second, I replied to your post with numerous questions, I see none of them answered

Third, you are bringing the war on drugs, which it seems has little support here, into this picture saying we should punish the supplier "more harshly" than the small time guy buying. However, the fact that the company PRODUCES a product that can be ABused doesn't in any way reflect upon the culpability.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2586462 -

You jumped on him saying that these people don't exist.

Well I asked him whether they existed anywhere except in his imagination.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

Just old enough to remember lysergic/johnnyrespect/enima/TOYK. Didn't you threaten to "fuck" with the board for banning you so many times? Who let you back in?

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587819 -

Why don't you actually answer my points instead of calling me names? I have no idea what you are tlaking about, but I do know that you answered zero of my X questions.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2589539 -

Yes enima  :rolleyes:

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2589601 -

germin8tionn8ion writes:

Why don't you actually answer my points instead of calling me names?

Don't take it personally. It's just Alex's style. He doesn't answer questions.

pinky


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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Phred]
    #2590513 -

I answer any question that is worth replying to. I didn't think the questions of a guy who'se been banned at least 5 times and threatened to attack and bring down the shroomery rated as being that important. Obviously you do.

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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2590707 -

Alex123 writes:

I answer any question that is worth replying to.

Bwahahahaha! Sure you do, Alex, sure you do.

I didn't think the questions of a guy who'se been banned at least 5 times and threatened to attack and bring down the shroomery rated as being that important.

I don't know who germin8tionn8ion is in real life, but he's not TheOneYouKnow/enimatpyrt/lysergic/JohnnyRespect. The Admins have run two different puppet check programs (which use different methodology to detect puppetry) on him at my request and he's squeaky clean.

pinky


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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2591401 -

Quote:
I answer any question that is worth replying to.


Hey, here you are both being funny and lying at the same time. Pretty good.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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