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Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes?
    #25685474 -

I was thinking about how companies rely on the fact that most people do not actually read the contracts they sign because of the time involved. Well, it would seem to me that we can use this same exploitation against them; they don't tend to read the contracts that you sign either because they're so used to people mindlessly signing them. From what I've researched it would seem as though this would be perfectly legal and binding.

An example of what I'm talking about is say a credit card company mails you an application to sign. You make any changes you want, say changing your apr from 12% to 1.2%, you can add in a clause that if they cancel the CC without you violating the contract that they must pay you $1,500. You know, make any changes you feel like, initial them, then sign on all of the relevant places. Or even just type up a whole new contract. Is there any reason this would not be legally binding?

Edited by krypto2000 (12/17/18 02:19 PM)

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685485 -

That is like taking home a report card, filling in the grades you want.

Thing is you have no service to offer.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25685540 -

Morel Guy said:
That is like taking home a report card, filling in the grades you want.

Thing is you have no service to offer.


If grades were a contractual agreement and you had to sign off on them to accept them I'd agree. You don't agree to a report card though, a report card is simply information supplied to you.

By signing the credit card application and user agreements you are legally agreeing to adhere to the policies laid out. If they try to sue you to collect their 12.5% APR and you dispute that you do not owe it what legal standing would they have to collect? I can see a court dismissing that they owe you the $1,500 for cancelling as they have not signed it, thus it could be argued that they did not agree to it, but I can't see any possible way they can enforce anything that you never agreed to; that is the entire point of the contract. Likewise though I could see them issuing you the credit card upon submitting the agreement as an implicit agreement on their part and the $1,500 would be awarded.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685559 -

The deck is stacked against you.  Can't change that.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25685620 -

In what way? What I'm hearing is that this "doesn't feel right" to you essentiay, but I'm not seeing any legal arguments being put forth to dispute what I've laid out.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685651 -

They don't have to validate the altered document.

It's YOU signing an aggreement to recieve services.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25685684 -

Right, I can see that being successfully argued in court and that's why I question if the $1,500 fine for cancelling would be enforceable. Idk hoe thst msy turn out.

Similarly however I can't possibly see how it could be argued that you validated the unaltered document given that you never signed it; it's their responsibility to make surr you do before issuing you the actual card after all. I mean if thst were somehow legally binding then there would be no reason to ask you to sign the contract to begin with.

How is thst any different from giving someone a deed to a house without them signing a bill of sale and then suing them in court clsiming they owe you X amount citing that thats what you asked for on a craigslist ad? You'd have no legal standing.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685701 -

Well the last bit sounds like a scam.

I don't have credit or credit cards.  Just medical bills and income that can only be taken by the govt.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25685708 -

You can do that, but how do you enforce it without their signature and initials?  Do you really think they'll initial the changes and return it to you?

They send an offer.  If you accept it, a contract has been formed under those terms.  If you change the terms and send it back, that's a rejection of their offer and you making a counteroffer.  Unless they accept that counteroffer, you have no contract with them.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25685726 -

I'd agree the last scenario sounds like a scam, why would someone possibly sign a deed over without having a bill of sale, but it still rests on the plantiff/former home owner to prove. As the law stands the guy has the deed, the plantiff signed it over to them. If they were not tricked and simply did so because their cognitively deficient then that is entirely on them. I would agree some sort of mental defense could work in thst case, say the person was deemed mentally unfit by the court to give their house away, but that's getting off topic.

The point here is as a consumer we are expected to read all of the contracts that we encounter and sign on a daily basis. Why would the people issuing the contracts not be held to the same standard? It's legal to modify a contract before signing it, that's not disputable. What I am proposing is not even unfair, it's their obligation to read the contract just as much as it is ours, if they issue services without making sure thst you've even agreed to their contract then how could they possibly enforce it? That's entirely on them for not doing their due diligence. This game goes both ways, we don't have to always be the ones getting played.

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685742 -

Enlil said:
You can do that, but how do you enforce it without their signature and initials?  Do you really think they'll initial the changes and return it to you?

They send an offer.  If you accept it, a contract has been formed under those terms.  If you change the terms and send it back, that's a rejection of their offer and you making a counteroffer.  Unless they accept that counteroffer, you have no contract with them.


That is exactly what I would expect. So you would agree that they would have no right to enforce a 12.5% APR then, but I would also have no right to charge them $1,500 for not honoring the contract?

If they still issue mr the credit card yet the terms are unenforceable I'd say that works out in my favor. Essentially I would have a credit card, I can use it per the terms of the policy, but if at sny point I'd like to dispute it and get out of the policy I'd have a valid legal ground to do so given thst I never actually agreed to it.

Another use for this is say you go to a hospital and they give you contracts and forms to fill out. On the part relevant to agreeing to payment you add a clause that total accepted charges may not exceed 1$. I sign it, they don't bother to read it to make sure I agreed to it, and then bill me for $15,000. I disoute the charges citing that I never agreed to pay that and it goes to court. Who wins? I'm inclined tk think the judge would find that I owe them 1$. If they want to perform surgery yet not bother to read their contract then that's on them.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685744 -

Because they were unaware?  Ghey could not have known?


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685748 -

It's a bit more complicated than that.  What you likely have is no contract, and then you're looking at common counts.  You very likely would still owe the money.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25685754 -

What do you mean they couldn't have known? They make sure you sign the contract before issuing the card but they probably don't tskr the time to make surr the contract is unaltered. That's not my problem. :shrug:

I shouldn't be punished because they didn't read the contract, that's not s valid defense for you or I, why would it be for them?

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685761 -

They almost certainly take the time to make sure the contract is unaltered.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685821 -

Enlil said:
It's a bit more complicated than that.  What you likely have is no contract, and then you're looking at common counts.  You very likely would still owe the money.


I'm looking this up and I understand it to a degree but not completely, so I'll have to do more research before I can expand bryond this.

Would you agree that it could only benefit us to modify contracts like this given these circumstances? It sounds to me like at best it may benefit us and at worst it will do nothing at all.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685833 -

Could there be or is there a terms of service that stipulates that the initial contract offering cannot be altered without being void?


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:whyyy:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25685835 -

krypto2000 said:
Would you agree that it could only benefit us to modify contracts like this given these circumstances? It sounds to me like at best it may benefit us and at worst it will do nothing at all.


No.  Modifying it won't help you unless they agree to the modifications.  Most likely it will mean they refuse service to you.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #25685836 -

bodhisatta said:
Could there be or is there a terms of service that stipulates that the initial contract offering cannot be altered without being void?


Yes, it can specify that.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685840 -

If you modify a contract and send it back but make extra sure to obfuscate the fact that it's altered could you be liable for fraud or some other crime?

Also if you do that and they don't believe it's modified because it looks like the original wouldn't they still need to sign it. If some employee takes a revised contract and files it away without any new signature for the changes is it void?


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:whyyy:

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