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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #25685842 -

Probably not, but if you're successful, it's probably not an enforceable contract.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685844 -

I edited that last post and added this question. I don't think you probably saw it.

Also if you do that and they don't believe it's modified because it looks like the original wouldn't they still need to sign it. If some employee takes a revised contract and files it away without any new signature for the changes is it void?


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:whyyy:

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25685849 -

That really depends.  A signature isn't the be-all/end-all for contract formation.  An offer can be accepted by performance (conduct).  One could argue that issuing a card after receiving an altered contract is acceptance of the terms of that contract.  Of course, one could argue that this is a bunch of hooey.

In the end, contracts require a meeting of the minds.  If one party intentionally acts so as to confuse the other party, that's going to void the contract.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685854 -

In regard to the credit card scenario while it may go to common counts wouldn't it also be fair to say that my end of the contract could also be covered by it?

Based on my understanding common counts comes into play when someone is essentially legslly defrauded in a sense (to put it in so many words). Eg I tell someone I will pay them for a job but have them sign a contract saying they will do it for free; the judge/jury can reasonably tell they did not sign the contract in good faith and thus give them what they determine to be the market rate.

So couldn't it be reasonably argued that if we made "reasonable/good faith" changes to the contract or took extra steps tk introduce the changes that it would not be a common counts matter because common counts itself would apply equally to both parties? I could personally and reasonably believe anything over 4% apr to be unreasonable, I could include an additional letter stating that I have modified the agreed to the contract or make sure to show "honest intent" in other words. If I would not have agreed to the 12.5% APR to begin with in other words it would seem to me thst "common counts" would apply to their claim that I owe them 12.5% as much as it would to mr thst I only owe them 1.5%. So in such a case how would a court reasonably determine a fair APR?

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685864 -

None of that really matters, though.  You'd get the card and charge something.  If you didn't pay it and interest, they'd sue.  In the end, you'd be ordered to pay the whole amount back no matter what, even if it is at reduced interest.  It would also ruin your credit.

I don't see any upside to your scheme.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25685907 -

Of course, but that's exactly ehat I would expect and be going for, I wouldn't expect to not have to pay back what was spent, especially at less than the modified contract stated. Ignore the $1,500 fine for them, that was more of an aside question ti see how far you could take it.

So they issue me the card, I use it for however long and pay it off as one typically would. Say 4 months in I call them to dispute the APR because I noticed it's higher than expected. Let's say they ignore the contract they have on file and insist I owe it.

I then pay off what I believe I should owe and they send the rest to collections. I then sue them or eait for them to sue me; I disoute with the courts and am found to be right. I then can dispute anything related off of my credit. The net result is that I didn't have to pay 11% additional APR. Factoring in the time it takes to go to court and change the contract I don't see anything to lose.

Edit: Maybe a CC is not a eorthwhile example but if you can use this for other things it can be. Medical procedures for example, say you go to the ER and erite in a clause that they cannot charge you more than $500. That's a reasonable thing to do because you're poor and more than thst would literally bankrupt you. The 60 seconds it took you to modify thst could be the difference between paying $500 and $35,000. It's only in your interest to do so.

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685989 -

Report back W results please


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: Contract Law - If I'm the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #25686004 -

It will be awhile, but the next time this becomes relevant I will try it, if I remember however long from now I will be surr to report back.

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Enlil]
    #25686117 -

Enlil said:
You can do that, but how do you enforce it without their signature and initials?  Do you really think they'll initial the changes and return it to you?

They send an offer.  If you accept it, a contract has been formed under those terms.  If you change the terms and send it back, that's a rejection of their offer and you making a counteroffer.  Unless they accept that counteroffer, you have no contract with them.


Listen to this


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R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa, Jellyfish
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #25686124 -

I did, that's exactly the point, did you not see my response? If you have a one sided contract it's in your interest to receive the services without being under a contract. Do you think most of these contracts are designed with your interest in mind?

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25686132 -

krypto2000 said:
I did, that's exactly the point, did you not see my response? If you have a one sided contract it's in your interest to receive the services without being under a contract. Do you think most of these contracts are designed with your interest in mind?


I didnt see the reply in massive pain but yeah I'm sorry man that is fucked up and I wish you the best


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa, Jellyfish
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #25686136 -

I hope you feel better, everything okay?

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25686140 -

krypto2000 said:
I did, that's exactly the point, did you not see my response? If you have a one sided contract it's in your interest to receive the services without being under a contract. Do you think most of these contracts are designed with your interest in mind?


Actually yes. Consumer demand pushes market trends. Because customers are pains in the ass things like contracts smooth things over so shit isn't expensive for everyone because of a few asshats.


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:whyyy:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25686142 -

Thank you krypt :smile: , first day of physical therapy and it was very very painful. Gotta lot of boring ass work ahead of me. Thanks fee askin


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa, Jellyfish
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25686212 -

bodhisatta said:
krypto2000 said:
I did, that's exactly the point, did you not see my response? If you have a one sided contract it's in your interest to receive the services without being under a contract. Do you think most of these contracts are designed with your interest in mind?


Actually yes. Consumer demand pushes market trends. Because customers are pains in the ass things like contracts smooth things over so shit isn't expensive for everyone because of a few asshats.


That must be why healthcare is so affordable. I'm an asshat for trying to set terms instead of paying exhorbitant rates without a say?

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25686748 -

Healthcare is fucked because the government put their hands on it. If your under 50 and healthy take the money you'd put into healthcare and just save it yourself for healthcare...


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:whyyy:

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25686762 -

I don't think it's a typical contract arrangement because the card companies hold a contract with the banks, first and foremost. That means the real contract signings happen between them, and likely the papers indicate that anyone being inducted into the arrangement are subject to those rules. It's like the neighborhood kids have a club house. You want in. And they'll let you in, on the terms they agreed abd are bound to. It doesn not make sense you'd be able to appeal but one party.

You'd have to appeal both, and to do that you'd spend millions in court. Or you could just apply for different cards and call repeatedly, asking for reduced rates. For free.

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #25686977 -

That doesn't make sense. Party B cannot hold Party C responsible for an agreement B has with A without Party C also signing onto the agreement. You can't just impose something on another without their concent like that, if you could that would open the public up to all kinds of fraud and exploitation. That's the entire reason they have you sign the contract to begin with, if that's how it worked why would they even bother?

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25687028 -

I think you’d be surprised how quickly expensive corporate lawyers dismantle you in court.  I don’t see this working bud sorry


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: Contract Law - If we're the only one signing it can we make legally binding changes? [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #25687096 -

I just did a bit of research and interestingly came across someone trying this exact thing, albeit in Russia so it wouldn't set a precedent for US courts.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html

Quote:

Man who created own credit card sues bank for not sticking to terms

But he didn't throw the contract away or shred it. Instead, the 42-year-old from Voronezh, Russia, scanned it into his computer, altered the terms and sent it back to Tinkoff Credit Systems.

Mr Argarkov's version of the contract contained a 0pc interest rate, no fees and no credit limit. Every time the bank failed to comply with the rules, he would fine them 3m rubles (£58,716). If Tinkoff tried to cancel the contract, it would have to pay him 6m rubles.

Tinkoff apparently failed to read the amendments, signed the contract and sent Mr Argakov a credit card.

"The Bank confirmed its agreement to the client's terms and sent him a credit card and a copy of the approved application form," his lawyer Dmitry Mikhalevich told Kommersant. "The opened credit line was unlimited. He could afford to buy an island somewhere in Malaysia, and the bank would have to pay for it by law."

However, Tinkoff attempted to close the account due to overdue payments. It sued Mr Argakov for 45,000 rubles for fees and charges that were not in his altered version of the contract.
Related Articles

Earlier this week a Russian judge ruled in Mr Argakov's favour. Tinkoff had signed the contract and was legally bound to it. Mr Argakov was only ordered to pay an outstanding balance of 19,000 rubles (£371).

"They signed the documents without looking. They said what usually their borrowers say in court: 'We have not read it',” said Mr Mikhalevich.

But now Mr Argakov has taken matters one step further. He is suing Tinkoff for 24m rubles for not honouring the contract and breaking the agreement.

Tinkoff has launched its own legal action, accusing Mr Argakov of fraud.

Oleg Tinkov, founder of the bank, tweeted: "Our lawyers think he is going to get not 24m, but really 4 years in prison for fraud. Now it's a matter of principle for @tcsbanktwitter."

The court will review Mr Argakov's case next month.


I wonder what happened with the follow up lawsuit. I feel like you guys who are shooting this down are doing so almost entirely with an emotional argument, no logic or reason to actually find my approach in the wrong; it just doesn't 'feel right' to you. The legal system isn't concerned with feelings though, they're concerned with the law. Enlil is the most qualified to answer this and even he said it may well work; although he did not seem to personally be fond of the idea.

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