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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000]
    #25654563 -

Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #25654656 -

Just because the transaction starts with deficit spending doesn’t mean a deficit is the intent. It just means the first transaction creates a deficit, and the second transaction is intended to close it. The end result is the same. The complete transaction is either balanced or it is not.

Is (-1) + 1 = 0

Different than

1 + (-1) = 0

?

Mathematically No. psychologically maybe.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/03/18 01:50 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25654730 -

ballsalsa said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
And I don't think it's because the government runs deficits. 


Oh, it absolutely is, or at least, that's why the system exists in the first place.
Look back to the chartering of the Bank of England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England#Founding
Quote:
England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England's rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

To induce subscription to the loan, the subscribers were to be incorporated by the name of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England. The Bank was given exclusive possession of the government's balances, and was the only limited-liability corporation allowed to issue bank notes.[14] The lenders would give the government cash (bullion) and issue notes against the government bonds, which can be lent again. The £1.2m was raised in 12 days; half of this was used to rebuild the navy.


It was literally brought into existence in order to make a big loan to the Gov't that it didn't have credit for in order to finance a military expense that would otherwise have to be paid through taxation.  In return, the Bank was allowed exclusive rights to poof money into existence with which to lend with interest.  This is the model banking systems around the world follow and it is important to keep in mind that irresponsible deficit spending is a feature, the feature, not a bug. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England
Quote:
The Bank of England is the central bank of the United Kingdom and the model on which most modern central banks have been based.



Yes, a central bank absolutely helps the Government fund itself, which can be especially good in times of need.  Our deficit skyrocketed during WWII, but that level of spending got us out of the Great Depression, and for a good long while after the war, our debt/gdp ratio went down, until Reagan gave the wealthy such big tax cuts that we could no longer afford to do that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25654797 -

I agree that like any tool it can be used responsibly.  There are examples.  Just not many in my lifetime. As you just demonstrated.

Edit: Why should we need a war to justify that kind of spending if the spending itself is the prescription?

Edited by ballsalsa (12/03/18 02:43 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25655374 -

ballsalsa said:
I agree that like any tool it can be used responsibly.  There are examples.  Just not many in my lifetime. As you just demonstrated.


And I agree, the system has been abused by both parties since the 80's.

ballsalsa said:
Edit: Why should we need a war to justify that kind of spending if the spending itself is the prescription?


Because Keynesian economics was relatively new and untested, and the war was a good excuse to try it out.  The Fed injected trillions during the financial crisis of 2007-2008 without a war to prevent another Great Depression.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25655499 -

We were spending like crazy on more than one war at that time, but I know what you meant.

Why not simply distribute those trillions to the public directly?

Edited by ballsalsa (12/03/18 07:53 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #25655509 -

ballsalsa said:
We were spending like crazy on more than one war at that time, but I know what you meant.

Why not simply distribute those trillions to the public directly?


Because we've got conservatives and establishment politicians telling us to distribute the trillions to billionaires so that it 'trickles down' to the rest of us.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25655531 -

that's my point.  I think it's too big a temptation.

Edit: That isn't to say a benevolent ruler doesn't come along now and again.  Doom and gloom isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.

Edited by ballsalsa (12/03/18 08:05 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25655622 -

If only we could convince everyone that Bernie would be one of the benevolent ones....


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25656410 -

ballsalsa said:
Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.


This is where I find common ground with libertarians. I think small government is the ideal, because while it is easy to see that great things can be accomplished by large government programs, things often go sideways, and you can't trust elected officials. That, and large government programs are difficult to dismantle, and resistant to change. The DEA and failed drug war are examples of that.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25656414 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If only we could convince everyone that Bernie would be one of the benevolent ones....


Do you think Bernie will run again?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #25656667 -

Bigbadwooof said:
ballsalsa said:
Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.


This is where I find common ground with libertarians. I think small government is the ideal, because while it is easy to see that great things can be accomplished by large government programs, things often go sideways, and you can't trust elected officials. That, and large government programs are difficult to dismantle, and resistant to change. The DEA and failed drug war are examples of that.


Who then would control the even larger corporations though? They're still run by humans, and they're by and large why the government sucks as it does today; who do you think encourages most of the corruption? At least the government is supposed to answer to the people, whether they always do or not.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000] * 2
    #25656969 -

krypto2000 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
ballsalsa said:
Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.


This is where I find common ground with libertarians. I think small government is the ideal, because while it is easy to see that great things can be accomplished by large government programs, things often go sideways, and you can't trust elected officials. That, and large government programs are difficult to dismantle, and resistant to change. The DEA and failed drug war are examples of that.


Who then would control the even larger corporations though? They're still run by humans, and they're by and large why the government sucks as it does today; who do you think encourages most of the corruption? At least the government is supposed to answer to the people, whether they always do or not.


I'm not convinced that you need large government organizations to control corporations. As far as controlling corporations, I think a German-style worker council situation would go a long way towards controlling corporations without concentrating power into corruptible government hands. When the board is comprised of workers, the board cares about environmental concerns locally, because they live there. They care about worker's wages, because they are the workers. Checks and balances.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 3
    #25657015 -

Bigbadwooof said:
ballsalsa said:
Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.


This is where I find common ground with libertarians. I think small government is the ideal, because while it is easy to see that great things can be accomplished by large government programs, things often go sideways, and you can't trust elected officials. That, and large government programs are difficult to dismantle, and resistant to change. The DEA and failed drug war are examples of that.


You know who you can’t trust? People whose legal responsibility is to make as much money for their company as possible. At least elected officials are accountable to the people. The only reason Chemical Corp doesn’t dump benzene into your local creek is because elected official have implemented regulations that make such activity illegal.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/04/18 02:42 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25657083 -

Bigbadwooof said:
krypto2000 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
ballsalsa said:
Thomas Payne had little faith in the benevolence of hereditary rulers.  I likewise have little faith in the responsible spending habits of our elected officials.  Sure, it could all be done with the public good in mind, I just haven’t seen a lot of that going on, and I don’t expect to.  Except insofar as monied interests and the public interests coincide, of course.  I feel like the best course at this point is to ride it till the wheels fall off and try to catch as catch can in the meantime.


This is where I find common ground with libertarians. I think small government is the ideal, because while it is easy to see that great things can be accomplished by large government programs, things often go sideways, and you can't trust elected officials. That, and large government programs are difficult to dismantle, and resistant to change. The DEA and failed drug war are examples of that.


Who then would control the even larger corporations though? They're still run by humans, and they're by and large why the government sucks as it does today; who do you think encourages most of the corruption? At least the government is supposed to answer to the people, whether they always do or not.


I'm not convinced that you need large government organizations to control corporations. As far as controlling corporations, I think a German-style worker council situation would go a long way towards controlling corporations without concentrating power into corruptible government hands. When the board is comprised of workers, the board cares about environmental concerns locally, because they live there. They care about worker's wages, because they are the workers. Checks and balances.


I think that's a fair solution but I also think that's essentially just government by another name, in practice what's the real difference?

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25657118 -

Quote:
They care about worker's wages, because they are the workers. Checks and balances.



You just invented unions , that’s awesome .


--------------------


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 3
    #25657366 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Do you think Bernie will run again?


This was published yesterday...

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/03/looks-like-bernie-sanders-is-running-for-president-again-despite-warning.html


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #25657874 -

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
They care about worker's wages, because they are the workers. Checks and balances.



You just invented unions , that’s awesome .


It's similar to a union, but it's not the same thing. Unions are more prone to corruption. Worker councils are members of the board who are chosen by the workers. There's no middleman.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25659592 -

Saw this in the news today: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/under-donald-trump-national-debt-tops-21-trillion-for-first-time-ever/

Why wont Trump take the debt seriously? He acts like its no big deal. $21 trillion is a massive, stupid amount of debt.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #25659634 -

Because he’s a complete fraud who has lived his life running up debt and making other people pay.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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