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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25650706 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
It’s not creating money for profit.


Excuse me?  What?

When you go to get a mortgage at a bank, that is new money the bank created, which it collects interest on.


And the money is destroyed when you repay the loan; and the bank keeps the interest. Do you have a problem with the bank making a profit, and covering the value of the principal lost during the period you controlled the money, and the risk that you  default.

Do you feel entitled to free money?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25650729 -

Ecactly.  Koods and Balls get it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25650752 -

you turning into a capitalist ?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods]
    #25650854 -

Quote:
And the money is destroyed when you repay the loan; and the bank keeps the interest. Do you have a problem with the bank making a profit, and covering the value of the principal lost during the period you controlled the money, and the risk that you  default.



Yes.  I have a problem with a private institution making fantastic profits selling something that takes no labour or resources to produce, while putting the world in debt.

Quote:
Do you feel entitled to free money?


I feel that paying interest to money creating usurers is like paying fealty to a feudal lord.


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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25650883 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
And the money is destroyed when you repay the loan; and the bank keeps the interest. Do you have a problem with the bank making a profit, and covering the value of the principal lost during the period you controlled the money, and the risk that you  default.



Yes.  I have a problem with a private institution making fantastic profits selling something that takes no labour or resources to produce, while putting the world in debt.

Quote:
Do you feel entitled to free money?


I feel that paying interest to money creating usurers is like paying fealty to a feudal lord.


I agree with you, and I'm certainly open to allowing the Government to get into banking for a better alternative system.  What I (and what I believe koods and balls) am doing is simply dispelling all the myths.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25650939 -

If you have a bank account, the interest they pay you is for the use of your money. You loan it to them, in a sense. You haven’t done any work.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods] * 1
    #25651072 -

Im stuck in the system as much as anyone else.  I need a bank account to function, and they just do that.  I suppose I could write them and tell them to take their interest payments and shove them up their ass.  Maybe I should take a principled stand like that. 

Actually, that's pretty funny.  They'd no doubt think I was crazy.  Maybe it could get some traction and make the news....

"Crazy man refuses interest payments from bank.  Men in white coats found magic mushrooms growing in a tub in his bedroom.  Obviously a terrorist."

It adds up to diddly squat anyways.  Pretty insignificant.  Compared to the interest I pay and have paid, Im in the red for this game. 

What is going on here in this thread?  It's like Im the only one outraged at the injustice of this all. 

Doesn't it make you angry that a small group of people can profit so richly providing society with something that takes no effort to produce?  Wouldn't you rather them to instead shoulder their share of the work it takes to have a civilization, like you no doubt do?

They might as well be charging you for the air you breath.  That would not take much less effort than this scam.


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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 2
    #25651082 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
What is going on here in this thread?  It's like Im the only one outraged at the injustice of this all.


I already told you I'm on your side, and said we should try government run banks.  That way, the profits come back to the taxpayer.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25651085 -

Banks are publicly owned corporations, so the stockholders own the business. Their business is renting money to people. I don't think there is anything immoral about it, even if in practice there are unscrupulous practices.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25651676 -

the Federal controls the money supply.  The Federal System is tasked to keep, what it, 'the economy stable' or so yes, the Federal Fucks us.  The Federal Control what the requirements are for the Fractional Banking, read about this private entity--the federal reserve--it is all in the policy and the statement (and requirement) and the federal is not for the people, it is for the bankers. 

why do the people get hot and blaming companies and capitalist for the failure in this system, the the Federal Reserve Board Goveners--not mstyical companies that screw us.

You can get the hard, hot cock from the Board of Governors of the Federal System.
.
www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reserve-maintenance-manual-reporting-requirements


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: starfire_xes]
    #25651683 -

starfire_xes said:
the Federal controls the money supply.  The Federal System is tasked to keep, what it, 'the economy stable' or so yes, the Federal Fucks us.


How is keeping the economy stable "fucking us"???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25652240 -

meaning that is means, i.e. control the money supply etc to keep the economy stable (like inflation, etc.)  But their mandate helps banks, not really for the people. 

But getting to on topic, the bank lends to one who buys a house with $% interest.

The pays back interest and cost.  What happens to the interest loaned and is repaid?


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #25652249 -

Quote:
How is keeping the economy stable "fucking us"???


I'm pretty sure 'keeping the economy stable' means doing what it can to ensure the present order is maintained, or to put it bluntly, that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. 

Sometimes this is called 'price stability' in central banker lingo.  A less technical but more descriptive name for it is "the recession method of inflation control".

One nefarious thing central banks do to achieve this is jack up interest rates whenever unemployment gets really low to 'cool the economy' meaning, kill job growth to avoid the natural market forces that would lead to wage increases.

The mechanism works like this.  Raising interest rates lowers the amount of money in an economy by discouraging new loans and making less money available for spending on things other than interest.  The economy contracts and lay-offs occur.

They even have this concept called NAIRU, which stands for Non Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment.  It is an economic theory which seeks to preserve the value of assets (ie: the position of the rich) by using unemployment to keep inflation down.  Basically it works by creating a desperate, hungry, portion of the population that will work for cheap just so they can survive.  This keeps wages from rising. 

Canada's NAIRU is higher than America's, for example, because it has public health insurance which lowers the desperation level of workers.  Unemployment must be kept higher in Canada in order to generate enough desperation that enough people will work for cheap to undercut wage demands.

Have you heard of this before?  Do you believe it?

Some people coming into this kind of information simply reject it outright as it is just so contrary to what they think is happening, and they retreat into what they've been told to think about these social problems we have with homelessness, child hunger, etc and blame the victims.

It's shocking just how callous and entitled the ruling class is.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

Edited by VroomerMcZoomers (12/02/18 01:19 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25652683 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How is keeping the economy stable "fucking us"???


I'm pretty sure 'keeping the economy stable' means doing what it can to ensure the present order is maintained, or to put it bluntly, that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. 


I'm pretty sure you just made that up.  Stability is a very good thing, especially for the not so rich.

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Sometimes this is called 'price stability' in central banker lingo.  A less technical but more descriptive name for it is "the recession method of inflation control".


I'm pretty sure you made that up too.  Stability by definition is staying away from recessions.

VroomerMcZoomers said:
One nefarious thing central banks do to achieve this is jack up interest rates whenever unemployment gets really low to 'cool the economy' meaning, kill job growth to avoid the natural market forces that would lead to wage increases.

The mechanism works like this.  Raising interest rates lowers the amount of money in an economy by discouraging new loans and making less money available for spending on things other than interest.  The economy contracts and lay-offs occur.


Raising interest rates slows inflation, which is very good for Main St.  It also allows savers to earn more, which especially helpful for retirees.  It makes the dollar stronger so people/companies have more purchasing power for foreign goods.  And if done correctly, it does not cool the economy enough to drive layoffs. 

VroomerMcZoomers said:
They even have this concept called NAIRU, which stands for Non Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment.  It is an economic theory which seeks to preserve the value of assets (ie: the position of the rich) by using unemployment to keep inflation down.  Basically it works by creating a desperate, hungry, portion of the population that will work for cheap just so they can survive.  This keeps wages from rising. 

Canada's NAIRU is higher than America's, for example, because it has public health insurance which lowers the desperation level of workers.  Unemployment must be kept higher in Canada in order to generate enough desperation that enough people will work for cheap to undercut wage demands.

Have you heard of this before?  Do you believe it?

Some people coming into this kind of information simply reject it outright as it is just so contrary to what they think is happening, and they retreat into what they've been told to think about these social problems we have with homelessness, child hunger, etc and blame the victims.

It's shocking just how callous and entitled the ruling class is.


NAIRU is not used by the US nor Canada to control their economies.  As you said, it's nothing more than economic theory.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25652735 -

You are naive.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25653095 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
You are naive.


I'm naive because I understand banking?  Or because... what???

Edit:  Seriously - tell me what I'm naïve about, and provide evidence, so I learn something.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/02/18 07:55 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25654067 -

This has been a good thread, Fal. I don't know that I entirely understand how banking works, but you've done a good job trying to break it down.

Thanks bud! :toast:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #25654165 -

This is a good thread and I think my opinion has changed somewhat having talked about this/learning a few things. I still think that the system has intentional devices to exploit by the wealthy but at the same time I do not think they exist solely for thst reason or that the public was tricked per say.

Those same devices are beneficial for the public and to some degree required for the system to even function, it's just one of those necessary (potential) evils. That's not to say that it's inherently evil, always is, or will be, but just that it can be so there will likely always be suspicions, some degree of wrong doing, etc, but that's very different from a ponzi scheme where the sole reason the system even exists is to exploit people. With freedom comes the ability to do bad things.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25654362 -

I see it as more of a “too late now” situation.  I think it’s a scam to quietly tax people who don’t know any better in order to more easily finance wars without going with hat in hand to the public, but I don’t know how to throw the bathwater out and still keep the baby. :shrug:

ballsalsa said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
And I don't think it's because the government runs deficits. 


Oh, it absolutely is, or at least, that's why the system exists in the first place.
Look back to the chartering of the Bank of England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England#Founding
Quote:
England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England's rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

To induce subscription to the loan, the subscribers were to be incorporated by the name of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England. The Bank was given exclusive possession of the government's balances, and was the only limited-liability corporation allowed to issue bank notes.[14] The lenders would give the government cash (bullion) and issue notes against the government bonds, which can be lent again. The £1.2m was raised in 12 days; half of this was used to rebuild the navy.


It was literally brought into existence in order to make a big loan to the Gov't that it didn't have credit for in order to finance a military expense that would otherwise have to be paid through taxation.  In return, the Bank was allowed exclusive rights to poof money into existence with which to lend with interest.  This is the model banking systems around the world follow and it is important to keep in mind that irresponsible deficit spending is a feature, the feature, not a bug. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England
Quote:
The Bank of England is the central bank of the United Kingdom and the model on which most modern central banks have been based.



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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25654538 -

You're not wrong, but I would say that perspective is a bit biased. Deficit spending is the feature, the fact that that can be used irresponsibly is simply a consequence of that freedom.

In the same vein you or I can take a loan from a bank to start a business, something we otherwise would not be able to do, yet whether we run that business into the ground or make it a success is up to us. You wouldn't however say that the purpose behind bank loans is to allow you to open a business and run it into the ground.

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